Transubstantiation

If I didn't believe in transubstantiation then these verses might help me understand better:

(ie. one poster said how could we claim to take Jesus out of heaven)

Matt 28:20 - "....and I will be with you always, to the end of the age."
(We understand that he will be with us not only spiritually, but physically as well with the Eucharist.)

Luke 24:15-16 - "As they talked and discussed, Jesus himself drew near and walked along with them; they saw hem, but somehow did not recognize him...."
28-31 - "As they came near the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther; but they held him back, saying, 'Stay with us; the day is almost over and it is getting dark.' So he went in to stay with them. He sat down to eat with them, took the bread and said the blessing; then he broke the bread and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he disappered from their sight."
35 - "the two then explained to them what had happened on the road, and how they had recognized the Lord when he broke the bread."

and lastly:

Rev 5:6 -" then I saw a lamb, looking as if it had been slain...."
(seperated body and blood, maybe? That would make it look as if it had been slain)

(Is the Mass Truly a Sacrifice? http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

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Theresa

Please, prayfully read John 6, The Discourse on the Bread of Life. Jesus repeated Himself three thmes telling us that His Flesh is real food and His Blood real drink. Many walked away because these teachings were too hard to accept. Jesus did not call them back but reiterated His Divine Truth pertaining to the Eucharist.

In Christ, Patrick

To Patrick:

THREE times? I counted SEVEN times!! The Bread of Life Discourse in the sixth chapter of John is the most powerful message in the Gospel, IMHO.


Peace,
~VOW

Thanks again Vow-

I was going from recollection. Seven times! The perfect number for the perfect sacrament.

In Christ, Patrick
PS: Oh that all Christians would take these passages as literal.

One thing I find fascinating is how the author of Hebrews says 4 times, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek".  Of course this is a reference to Jesus being the High priest in heaven.  But one thing I completely overlooked is the fact that it says 'forever'.  And Heb 8:3 teaches:

"Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer" (Heb 8:3)

'this one' is of course referring to Our Lord Jesus Christ.  And since he's offering something forever (Heb 5:6, Heb 6:20, etc), now the question is:  What is Jesus offering forever!?

=)

Somehow that question never came to my mind until I came across Catholicism, and the answer is simply amazing in light of John 6, 1 Cor 11:24-30 and Revelation 5:6

The answer would also suggest that whatever was being done would be continually done like the early church (Acts 2:42, Acts 20:7), since whatever Jesus's ministered was to be done forever (Heb 6:5) =)

God bless!

-Jason

I am a protestant. I am asking permission before I say anything in here as I realize it is a Catholic forum. I came to this because I am trying to understand transubstantiation and where in the Bible it discusses it. Would it be okay if I ask a few questions or make a few statements? I recognize that we will definitely have different views on the subject. I would also like to know what Catholics think it is we believe the bread and wine to be. I'll understand if you say no.
Jesus loves you!
damaris

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"The same thing which is now called CHRISTIAN RELIGION existed among the Ancients. They have begun to call Christian the true religion which existed before. " St. Augustine

"He who knows only one religion knows none." Professor Max Muller

Catholics believe that the bread and wine, after the Consecration, becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

But it doesn't taste like flesh and blood.

True, but theologically speaking, every creation consists of what is known as accidental and substantial properties.


Accidental properties are things that we often associate with an object but which can change without changing what that object is.


Substance is what makes an object an object.


So, take a rose for example. It has a sweet scent, it has smooth petals and thorns that can prick you, it has a deep, lovely red color, it has a bitter taste to it.


Those are all accidental properties. You can stop watering the rose and the color will go from red to black. Instead of being smooth to the touch it can become brittle and the thorns may drop off or become dulled, the scent may disappear. Yet, it is still a rose.


What the doctrine of Transubstantiation states is that while the accidental properties of the bread and wine remain unchanged, what has changed is the substance. So while it tastes like bread and like wine (both accidental properties), it is actually the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in substance.


Does that make sense?

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Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals. I get my back into my living. I don't need to fight, to prove I'm right. I don't need to be forgiven.

Hi damaris13,

I'm also not Catholic, however I don't know if I'm a protestant either =P I'm slowly leaning towards Catholicism.

In anycase, another significant aspect of transubstantiation is that the Lord is present in the bread and wine, since Catholics believe that the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.  In some ways, I think it's weird, but I trust Jesus's words when he said, "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink" (John 6:55).

I used to think this passage was to be taken figuratively, until I realized that it's silly for Jesus to not have explained the figurativeness of the passage to those who turned away

...but of course Jesus reaffirms his words by constantly saying, "eat and drink my blood" whenever the people began grumbling (John 6:61), which indicates Jesus literally meant what he meant.

In anycase, the significance of the blood and wine being the flesh and blood of the lord is that Catholics participate in the Lord's supper and that Christ is present at the breaking of bread (Luke 24:35).  In other words, Christ is revealed through the lord's supper, particularly through the bread and body of the lord.

That would explain why early believers devoted themselves to partaking in the lord's supper (Acts 2:42), since it must've been incredible to experience Christ in this way, on a weekly basis (Acts 20:7).  The marriage supper of the Lamb of course is the 'best' part in Revelation (Rev 19:9)

God bless!

-Jason

you know nyj, i think that's one of the best and most understandable explanations of transubstantiation i have ever read. the odd thing is that it is very similar to what i have come to hold when i take communion at a protestant church. for me, Jesus is in the bread and the wine because that is what he gave up for me. he gave up his body and his blood on the cross in order to save me from my sins. believing and understanding the statement i just made is easy for me because i believe God and Jesus are in all things. i guess what i cannot say is that it is literally the body and the blood (this does not mean that i say it is symbolic, because i don't)

I guess what i have difficulty understanding is why only Catholics have transubstantiation when i know quite a few protestants who hold that the blood=wine and the bread=body in the manner i say i do. am i being clear?

next question, is it always wine? or do any Catholic churches serve grape juice like i know many Protestant churches do (i was always told as a child to take grape juice when i attended churches that served both).

Thank you!
Jesus loves you!

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"The same thing which is now called CHRISTIAN RELIGION existed among the Ancients. They have begun to call Christian the true religion which existed before. " St. Augustine

"He who knows only one religion knows none." Professor Max Muller

 

Thank you.

 

I guess the difference arises because I am pretty sure that the Catholic Church does not believe that God/Jesus Christ reside in all of creation (I'd have to check further into St.Thomas' Summa).  That the Creator and the creations are separate.  For instance, by logical analysis of God and the nature of sin (the rejection of God), the two cannot reside together in the same place.  Therefore, when understood in this particular light, you can see that Transubstantiation becomes even more of a big deal because it takes a "Special Event" to occur for God to reside in the bread and wine.

 

Yes, I just think that the difference arises further down the "theological totem pole".  It just so happens that the Doctrine of Transubstantiation gets most of the press which is why it is the hotly debated contest.


 

 

Yes, it must be wine, see Canon Law #924.3 The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.  In the case of alcoholic priests, wine that has it's fermentation process halted by freezing may be allowed (called mustum) but ONLY by special permission from the Bishop of the diocese in which the priest resides.

 

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Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals. I get my back into my living. I don't need to fight, to prove I'm right. I don't need to be forgiven.