Strange passages in the bible

Homie · #1 28th November 2002, 05:44 PM

I found some strange passage in the Bible:
1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Isn't that a bit violent, to kill the women and children. God is a fair God, so of course he would punish the Amalek people. But would God ask Saul to kill the innocent infants and toddlers? Is the answear:
1: The 1st verse is the word of God (as Samuel says) and the second verse is Samuels own opinion on what he thinks Saul should do about it?
2: Or does Samuel indeed mean that both verses is what God said to him? 3: Or is Samuel a false profet? (unlikely IMHO)
Please help

Also these passages indicates that God uses evil spirits:
Judges 9:23 -- "Jud 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:"
1 Samuel 16:14 -- "1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him."

Matthew · #2 29th November 2002, 03:11 PM

I found some strange passage in the Bible:
1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Isn't that a bit violent, to kill the women and children. God is a fair God, so of course he would punish the Amalek people. But would God ask Saul to do all this. Or is the 1st verse the word of God (as Samuel says) and the second verse is Samuels own opinion on what he thinks Saul should do about it? Or does Samuel indeed mean that both verses is what God said to him? Or is Samuel a false profet?
Please help

These are very difficult passages in the Bible. It doesn't seem just for God to command that, and we want to avoid that conclusion. But there are other places where God directly commands the destruction of a people (men, women and children). Likely, all of this is the word of God.

But now the question is: why? For an answer, we would be guessing for the most part. My belief is that God commanded this so that the corrupt practices of the Amalekites would not infect the nation of Israel.

Also these passages indicates that God uses evil spirits:
Judges 9:22-23
1 Samuel 16:14

You certainly are bringing up a lot! Judges 9:23 - "God sent an evil spirit", and 1 Samuel 16:14 - "an evil spirit from the LORD", do indicate that God uses evil spirits/demons. But that doesn't mean that God directly sent them. He could have arranged circumstances so that they freely did their evil.

Homie · #3 29th November 2002, 08:15 PM

But now the question is: why? For an answer, we would be guessing for the most part. My belief is that God commanded this so that the corrupt practices of the Amalekites would not infect the nation of Israel.

So God teaches that the end justifies the means? Because what I have come to learn, God is fair. Is it fair to kill a child, an infant that never had the chance to choose God or to do any evil.

But that doesn't mean that God directly sent them

Judges 9:23 - "God sent an evil spirit" hmm...seems so

But that doesn't mean that God directly sent them. He could have arranged circumstances so that they freely did their evil.

Cooperating with evil, the very enemy of God, does not seem better in my eyes. It is like the FBI helping/cooperating with the "little fish" to catch the "big fish" (hollywood talk for mafia)

Only one reply

, I was hoping for quite a few that explained this to me so I could rest easily and comfortably. Thanks to you at least Matthew, for your reply. Roughly 4500 members and only one have even attempted to answear these questions, have I stumbled upon something or does this sub-forum get little attention.

Matthew · #4 30th November 2002, 01:42 PM

So God teaches that the end justifies the means?

No, he does not. God is bound by the same rules of right and wrong that we are bound by. These rules are even part of his character, so that God cannot do something that is wrong.

Because what I have come to learn, God is fair. Is it fair to kill a child, an infant that never had the chance to choose God or to do any evil.

Because God is the Creator, he has the right to take life and to give life. We do not, because we are not the Creator. Further, the command not to murder is not a command against all killing. Killing and murder are not the same.

Judges 9:23 - "God sent an evil spirit" hmm...seems so

If I was a general in an army, and was ordered to blow up a bridge, then I could ask a private to go and blow it up. The private could then say that the government sent him to blow up the bridge. It would be the truth. Yet the government did not directly send this private, he was sent through the general, me.

Cooperating with evil, the very enemy of God, does not seem better in my eyes. It is like the FBI helping/cooperating with the "little fish" to catch the "big fish" (hollywood talk for mafia)

When God arranges circumstances, it is more like a sting operation than "cooperation". God desires that everyone will choose the good and avoid evil, but they do not always do this. And God knows all that ahead of time.

What would be worse: to have no control over the world, or to arrange circumstances so that a person freely chooses evil? I would prefer the second, knowing that God is both good and wise.

Only one reply, I was hoping for quite a few that explained this to me so I could rest easily and comfortably. Thanks to you at least Matthew, for your reply.

This is a very difficult subject. Thanks.

Roughly 4500 members and only one have even attempted to answear these questions, have I stumbled upon something or does this sub-forum get little attention.

Unfortunately, this sub-forum recieves very little attention.

Jesusong · #5 30th November 2002, 02:58 PM

In answering the Amalakite question one must know the conditions the people are living in in order to fully ascess the judgement that's about to befall them. Most of these people ( not just the Amalakites ) were given over to very depraved lifestyles such as fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, incest, beastiality, pedophilia, human sacrifices, all part of their religious worship. Who knows what diseases might be running rampant among them. In that light, its understandable as to why God would want all living things utterly destroyed. The death of all life doesn not necessarily mean that the children would be in hell for a sin that their not responsible for.

In regards to the evil spirit sent by God, read in Job chapters 1 & 2. Satan was allowed by God to test the faith of Job. Satan did not have full access to Job. All spirits, good or evil, have to obey the authority of God. God may allow the evil spirit a time to do what they may do, but their access is limited. If a person is living outside of the will of God, His protective hand will be removed and an evil spirit will be allowed to have access to this persons life. How much access? Only God knows. But it will be only for our benefit, in order to draw us back to God in repentance.

Matthew · #6 30th November 2002, 04:10 PM

In answering the Amalakite question one must know the conditions the people are living in in order to fully ascess the judgement that's about to befall them. Most of these people ( not just the Amalakites ) were given over to very depraved lifestyles such as fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, incest, beastiality, pedophilia, human sacrifices, all part of their religious worship. Who knows what diseases might be running rampant among them. In that light, its understandable as to why God would want all living things utterly destroyed. The death of all life doesn not necessarily mean that the children would be in hell for a sin that their not responsible for.

Thanks for pointing that out. (Forgot to mention it my response.)

In regards to the evil spirit sent by God, read in Job chapters 1 & 2. Satan was allowed by God to test the faith of Job. Satan did not have full access to Job. All spirits, good or evil, have to obey the authority of God. God may allow the evil spirit a time to do what they may do, but their access is limited. If a person is living outside of the will of God, His protective hand will be removed and an evil spirit will be allowed to have access to this persons life. How much access? Only God knows. But it will be only for our benefit, in order to draw us back to God in repentance.

Although I would say that sometimes (not in the case of Job), it is for other's benefit. You have to remember that Saul was living outside of God's will.

Homie · #7 1st December 2002, 08:32 AM

I said:
"So God teaches that the end justifies the means? "
Matthew replied:
"No, he does not. God is bound by the same rules of right and wrong that we are bound by. These rules are even part of his character, so that God cannot do something that is wrong. "

But if God ordered the killing of innocent (infants and toddlers) he was being unfair to them, not giving them a chance to choose good or evil, he did this because it would be for the better in the long run since these sinful people the Amalekites would be wiped out, but he still did something bad/unfair because it would be for the better in the end. Now that is acting in the lines of "the end justifying the means".

Matthew · #8 2nd December 2002, 01:46 PM

But if God ordered the killing of innocent (infants and toddlers) he was being unfair to them, not giving them a chance to choose good or evil,

Actually, he was not being "unfair" or unjust with them. God is the Creator of the Universe, and as such he is also the owner of everything and everyone in it. Because of this, he is allowed (it is just) for him to do with people as he pleases, and that includes being allowed to kill infants.

he did this because it would be for the better in the long run since these sinful people the Amalekites would be wiped out,

So we agree that that is a good reason (good ends).

but he still did something bad/unfair because it would be for the better in the end. Now that is acting in the lines of "the end justifying the means".

As I have stated above, God did not do something unfair or bad. Therefore, he was not justifiying the means with the ends.

filosofer · #9 2nd December 2002, 06:06 PM

Matthew wrote:

No, he does not. God is bound by the same rules of right and wrong that we are bound by. These rules are even part of his character, so that God cannot do something that is wrong.

That seems to be backward, although I agree with your conclusion. God isn't right because he lives up to a standard. Rather, whatever God does is right.

Jesusong · #10 3rd December 2002, 04:30 AM

I am reminded of a passage in Job 40:2 and 41:11

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!"

Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.