Just a quick question...

IronFire · #11 30th March 2006, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Philip

Is it your intent to suggest that those who are not Calvinists do not focus on God?

A Calvanist would say non-Calvanists focus too much on man instead of God.

(btw, I'm slightly offended, because your statement seems nothing more than an ad hominem...)

AudioArtist · #12 31st March 2006, 03:23 PM

So do Calvinists believe that God ordains the actions of man, or not? Sorry, I am a bit unclear on this.

cygnusx1 · #13 31st March 2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by AudioArtist

So do Calvinists believe that God ordains the actions of man, or not? Sorry, I am a bit unclear on this.

yes !!!!!!!!!

now ask a fundemental question .......

Do calvinists accept God ordains all things in a variety of ways , using permission as well as commission ?

Yes!

augustine32 · #14 31st March 2006, 05:28 PM

I would hope everyone would agree that the death of Christ was the greatest evil done on this earth. He was perfectly holy and yet put to death as a criminal.

Consider these passages:

Acts 2:23 "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

God planned to deliver Christ up to these men.

Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Not only did God deliver Jesus up to them, they could only do what God had predestined to occur.

Isaiah 53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God"

Isaiah 53:6 "But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

Isaiah 53:10 "But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief"

These passages seem to indicate that God was not a by-stander in the death of Christ, but was very actively involved. And if we can see God bringing about the greatest good possible through His predetermining and involvement in the greatest evil, then it should strengthen our faith to believe that God is actively involved in all world and individual events working in them to bring about the greatest possible good for His people: molding them into the image of Christ. Rom 8:28, 29

AudioArtist · #15 31st March 2006, 06:01 PM

I would personally find it utterly imposssible to believe in a God who predestined the acts of Hitler and Nazis at concerntration camps, but I suppose that's neither here nor there. Thanks for your answers, everyone. This will require great consideration; I'm on the verge of disbelief, so I need some prayer! I find it difficult to believe in (what I percieve) to be a God who ordains Evil.

Van · #16 31st March 2006, 08:00 PM

Hi, there is no basis for belief that God exhaustively controls all events, that is Religious Fatalism and is not biblical. You should not be concerned with a difficulty in believing God ordains evil from His perspective. He does not! But good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, when to groups are a war, what is good for one side looks like evil from the other side. So we must look at good and evil from God's view, if He brings about calamity for His purpose, those affected with disaster see the disaster as evil, but God does not. So God does not ordain evil, but He allows evil, such as Hitler to occur. God could have prevented every death, every bad thing, if that was His plan, because He is all powerful. But instead, God allows things to happen that we see as evil, for the purpose of turning our eyes on Him. And that purpose is not evil in His eyes.

When men reject God, and say that is not fair, they are pridefully claiming the right to judge God, and to tell God he cannot require our sole this very night. God is opposed to the proud.

In summary, God does things that if they affected us, we would see as evil. But these actions are not evil from God's perspective, He has the right of creator to treat His creation according to His view of what is just, He is not bound by our view. Second, God also allows evil, the product of the autonomous decisions of men, to occur, because without our ability to chose, we could not bring glory to God, which is God's purpose of creating us.

cygnusx1 · #17 31st March 2006, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Van

Hi, there is no basis for belief that God exhaustively controls all events, that is Religious Fatalism and is not biblical. You should not be concerned with a difficulty in believing God ordains evil from His perspective. He does not! But good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, when to groups are a war, what is good for one side looks like evil from the other side. So we must look at good and evil from God's view, if He brings about calamity for His purpose, those affected with disaster see the disaster as evil, but God does not. So God does not ordain evil, but He allows evil, such as Hitler to occur. God could have prevented every death, every bad thing, if that was His plan, because He is all powerful. But instead, God allows things to happen that we see as evil, for the purpose of turning our eyes on Him. And that purpose is not evil in His eyes.

When men reject God, and say that is not fair, they are pridefully claiming the right to judge God, and to tell God he cannot require our sole this very night. God is opposed to the proud.

In summary, God does things that if they affected us, we would see as evil. But these actions are not evil from God's perspective, He has the right of creator to treat His creation according to His view of what is just, He is not bound by our view. Second, God also allows evil, the product of the autonomous decisions of men, to occur, because without our ability to chose, we could not bring glory to God, which is God's purpose of creating us.

twaddle van! ........... either God is in control or He isn't.

Scripture affirms in several places all things work together for good , and all things works after the counsel of God's will.

What you posit is a selective Sovereignty ....... a partial Kingly rule.

Even Satan is under the Sovereign Reign of God , and the most random event , the Lot , is cast in the Lap but the descision is wholly of the Lord.

Of course you will continue to say that this is fatalism , because you refuse to see The Lord over all events.

ian90 · #18 31st March 2006, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Van

There is no basis for belief that God exhaustively controls all events, that is Religious Fatalism and is not biblical.

I concurr:

And they built the high places of Baal, in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech; which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Jeremiah 32:35

If God is said to determine, plan or orchestrate the occurance of every single event then this must have included the building of these idols.

God tells Jeremiah that he did not command such a thing and that such a thing did not even enter his mind.

Argue as you will.

cygnusx1 · #19 31st March 2006, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by ian90

I concurr:

And they built the high places of Baal, in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech; which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Jeremiah 32:35

If God is said to determine, plan or orchestrate the occurance of every single event then this must have included the building of these idols.

God tells Jeremiah that he did not command such a thing and that such a thing did not even enter his mind.

Argue as you will.

taken literaly ; God did not know that the sin in Jeremiah 32:35 would occur !

Taken as a figure of speech .......... God did NOT ascent to the sin .... it was an abomination to Him.

I know which I think fits the overal Biblical data best..

God sees all things - Proverbs 15:3
God knows all - Psalm 147:4; Matthew 10:29-30
God is in control of all things ...Lamentations 3:37 Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come? 39 Why should a living man complain, a man, about the punishment of his sins?

Van · #20 1st April 2006, 02:12 AM

When RT must deal with scriptures that clearly show RT is completely wrong, then say the scripture does not mean what it says. Notice the side step, the inspired word, words chosen by God to reveal His nature to us, cannot be used. Exhaustive control is not a biblical view, and it does not mesh with scripture from Genesis to Revelation. God exercises a controlling influence when it is in accord with His purpose and plan, and God allows autonomous actions within the purview granted by God, when that is in accord with His purpose and plan. This is what scripture actually teaches.

God sees all things - Proverbs 15:3

A twisting of scripture, read the verse in your Bible, God's eyes are in every place, meaning God can see what is going on in His creation, both the evil and the good.

God knows all - Psalm 147:4; Matthew 10:29-30

A twisting of scripture, read the verses in your own bible, Psalm 147:4 says God counts and names the stars. Matthew 10:29 and 30 relates that God knows what is happening in the life of relatively worthless sparrows, and knows the number of hairs on our heads, indicating with Proverbs 15:3, that God knows everything He chooses to know concerning the present status of creation.

Lamentations 3:37 Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come? 39 Why should a living man complain, a man, about the punishment of his sins?

Does this teach "God is in control of all things ..." Nope So yet another twisting of scripture to fit the RT view. Verse 37 says God allows all things, and if God does not allow it, it does not happen because God is all powerful. Verse 38 teaches both good and evil in the view of men, come from God, but this is not an exhaustive statment, good and evil can come from the actions of men as well as described in Jerimiah 32:35.
And I am sorry but Lamentations 3:39 reads, why should any living mortal or any man offer complaint in view of his sins. This teaches since we deserve the torment due us due to our sins, we have it made in this life so we should not complain. Prideful folks who do not recognize how wretched and sinful they are complain about the circumstances of their lives.