Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
Someone asked me to start a thread in the Origins Theology forum to discuss the theology of TE. I like to think that this is not just another form of liberal theology or dialectical humanism.
I assume that if you are posting to this forum you accept the Nicean Creed. You may or may not take Genesis literally. If Genesis is figurative then where do we draw the line on literalism? The ressurection, the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, Christ and the Apostles?
Grace and peace,
Mark
__________________
“Gärtner, by the results of these transformation experiments, was led to oppose the opinion of those naturalists who dispute the stability of plant species and believe in a continuous evolution of vegetation. He perceives in the complete transformation of one species into another an indubitable proof that species are fixed with limits beyond which they cannot change.” (G. Mendel)
Biblical literalists, what is literal and what is not?
Ok biblical literalists, lets play a game. Lets play What is literal and what is not. And - not just from the perspective of a contemporary person living in the 21st century with the benfits of modern science and technology. Lets pretend that, not only would the Christians of the young earth creationist ilk of today be answering these questions, but also a christian from the seventh century.
Would a christian living 14 centuries ago interpret scriptures as literal that a contempory YEC christian would say are "obviously metaphorical".
Stationary Earth. Literal or not? Psalm 93:1 "[T]he world also is established, that it cannot be moved." (Don't bother telling me that the Earth "can't be moved from it's orbit", because gravitational pertubations such a passing by star could actually eject one or more planets from thier oribts and even from solar ssytem)
The Earth has 4 corners. Literal or not? Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
Earth has 4 corners. Literal or not? Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
The sky is solid. Literal or not? Genesis 1:17 "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,"
The sky is solid - and real hard. Literal or not? Job 37:18 " can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?"
Windows in the sky (and fountains in the deep). Literal or not? Genesis 7:11 "7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."
The Earth rests on pillars. Literal or not? I Samuel 2:8 "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, He lifteth up the needy from the dunghill, To make them sit with princes, And inherit the throne of glory: For the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, And he hath set the world upon them."
The Earth rests on pillars, and earthquakes are caused by shaking them. Literal or not? Psalm 75:3 "
The earth and all its inhabitants quake. I firmly hold its pillars"
The Earth rests on pillars, and earthquakes are caused by shaking them. Literal or not? Job 9:6 " Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble."
So biblical literalists. Where do YOU draw the line between on literalism, and would a biblical literalist of 500 years ago have come to the same conclusion as you?
To answer your question.
The bible is a mixture of fable, myth and genuine history all blended together. Biblical scholars devote their careers to finding what's literal or not. My answer is that it really does not matter. Things can be true without being historically accurate
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Someone asked me to start a thread in the Origins Theology forum to discuss the theology of TE. I like to think that this is not just another form of liberal theology or dialectical humanism.
I assume that if you are posting to this forum you accept the Nicean Creed. You may or may not take Genesis literally. If Genesis is figurative then where do we draw the line on literalism? The ressurection, the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, Christ and the Apostles?
Grace and peace,
Mark
Good question. Let me first talk about what I think the Bible is, and what I think it is not. I know this is not what you asked, but I think it's necessary in order to understand my answer.
Typically, I tend not to think that the Bible was given to us to be used as a science textbook (in any degree). After all, it is within human capacity to do science. It is not within human capacity to learn the truth about God, or to reconcile ourselves to Him. Except in the most extreme monist philosophies, this is totally outside human epistemology. This requires revelation.
The consequence is that I am far more interested in understanding, "what is the author of this particular passage trying to communicate?" than "is this literal?" Of course, this includes, "is this literal?" more often than not, but the larger question provides a framework for exploration.
Questions about origins facts don't make a lot of sense in the ancient world. This is actually why mythologies develop. They develop because, even in the absence of facts, people want the truth about who they are, and how they relate to reality, and how this came to be. Could God have provided Evolution as His explanation? He wasn't missing the facts when He communicated Genesis to Moses. However, the problem with the facts is that they so rarely communicate anything of the truth. This is one of the greatest complaints young-Earth Creationists have against Evolution (in my experience). I don't even know how many times I have heard, "but if Evolution is true, then there is no meaning." Which is why my idea of a strictly semantically correct statement would be, "Evolution is not true, it is a fact." In this sense, for God to give Moses a myth about origins (C.S. Lewis considered it the true myth, or the "chosen mythology") is precisely what was needed, and precisely what humans could not have discovered given an eternity of searching using their own resources.
Early Church Fathers appear to have recognized a particular intent in Genesis. St. Athanasius (the primary architect of the Nicene Creed, the originator of the word, trinitas (Trinity), and orthodox adapter of the words homoousis and hypostasis) seems to have taken Genesis (at least the first few chapters) as an allegory in "Against the Heathen." This is roughly 1500 years before Darwin's voyage aboard the Beagle.
I realize how dense an individual I am. I am not the brightest buib in the box (sharpest knife in the drawer, etc.) and I realize that if I were to reinvent theology from scratch, I would run the serious risk of falling into heresy. Orthodoxy appears to have refuted just about as many as can be invented. As such, I value the input of the early Church in helping me to interpret the intent of various passages. I'm a Protestant, and I was raised in the Baptist Church, which emphasizes personal interpretation. However, my concern over my intellectual prowess (or lack thereof) causes me to return, again and again, to ancient sources for help.
Which passages do I view literally, and which are figurative? It depends on the passage. Miraculous occurrences certainly don't offend my sensibilities (you mentioned Elijah and Elisha), and if they happened literally, then praise be to God. That Christ is literally risen is, of course, the light by which I see.
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"Have you guys noticed that the internet is stupid?" --Macrina
earth has 4 corners? OK. let me see how you TEs interprete this. billions of years ago , there's the a pangaea(any contention?) you can find the west extreme in south america, north extreme in europe(I guess,) south extreme in antartica and east extreme in Asia. problem solved.
"Firmament" in Gen 1:6 means the atmosphere we're currently breething
"Firmament" in Gen 1:14 means outer space where suns and stars are
There're 3 heavens, one is the atmosphere, one is the outerspace and one is where God is also where you want to be in afterlife.
don't say sky is solid, you interpret it wrong.
I failed to see why it have to be solid.
you ever say Jack Chick twists Catholicism to attack Catholicism? well, you twist Bible to attack Bible.
Last edited by ThaiDuykhang; 1st February 2006 at 02:11 AM.
earth has 4 corners? OK. let me see how you TEs interprete this. billions of years ago , there's the a pangaea(any contention?) you can find the west extreme in south america, north extreme in europe(I guess,) south extreme in antartica and east extreme in Asia. problem solved.
I don't know of any writer in history who thought that this passage was literal. 4 corners of the Earth has always been viewed as a poetic reference to the 4 compass points (N, S, E, W). This is similar to "as far as east is from west" which doesn't view east or west as destinations to be reached, but that one can travel forever in either direction and not cross some boundary (e.g. one's sins are pushed infinitely far away).
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"Have you guys noticed that the internet is stupid?" --Macrina
"Firmament" in Gen 1:6 means the atmosphere we're currently breething
"Firmament" in Gen 1:14 means outer space where suns and stars are
There're 3 heavens, one is the atmosphere, one is the outerspace and one is where God is also where you want to be in afterlife.
don't say sky is solid, you interpret it wrong.
I failed to see why it have to be solid.
you ever say Jack Chick twists Catholicism to attack Catholicism? well, you twist Bible to attack Bible.
About earth rest on pillars, it's amazing Catholic Tradition always taugh earth is supported by nothing and is immobile in the center of universe. that's still the teaching today, popes can't go against (Catholic) Tradition anyway. It's in the center so it doesn't need to be supported by anything
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Ok biblical literalists, lets play a game. Lets play What is literal and what is not. And - not just from the perspective of a contemporary person living in the 21st century with the benfits of modern science and technology. Lets pretend that, not only would the Christians of the young earth creationist ilk of today be answering these questions, but also a christian from the seventh century.
Oh, I am gong to like this game. Let's play!
Would a christian living 14 centuries ago interpret scriptures as literal that a contempory YEC christian would say are "obviously metaphorical".
They took the Scriptures quite literal, I don't think there is any reason to think they didn't.
Stationary Earth. Literal or not? Psalm 93:1 "[T]he world also is established, that it cannot be moved." (Don't bother telling me that the Earth "can't be moved from it's orbit", because gravitational pertubations such a passing by star could actually eject one or more planets from thier oribts and even from solar ssytem)
Actually this is hyperbole. It does not describe a redemptive event, person or miracle. This is poetic prose, of course it's figurative.
The Earth has 4 corners. Literal or not? Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
Of course this is hyperbole with no real explanation about what the four corners are. It means from every place on the globe. It was literally fullfilled by Israel becoming a nation after 2,000 years. They had preserved their bloodline, their religion and their culture. There has never been anything like this, never will be again. Clearly Israel is a miracle, the clearest expression of literally fullfilled prophecy in the modern world.
Earth has 4 corners. Literal or not? Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
literal in what sense? You are obviously finding as much obscure hyperbole as you can. Actual events are the key here, but let's see where you take me with this...
The sky is solid. Literal or not? Genesis 1:17 "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,"
Of course that is figurative, you have another example to look at.
The sky is solid - and real hard. Literal or not? Job 37:18 " can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?"
This passage describes an approaching storm. God in the next chapter speaks to Job out of the Whilewind, don't you think the guy standing there is going to describe what he sees? I can tell my daughter she is cute as a button, obviously, I don't mean she is a button.
Windows in the sky (and fountains in the deep). Literal or not? Genesis 7:11 "7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."
Hyperbole and no, I don't take this in a stricly literal sense except that it says that it started raining and flooding on a massive scale.
The Earth rests on pillars. Literal or not? I Samuel 2:8 "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, He lifteth up the needy from the dunghill, To make them sit with princes, And inherit the throne of glory: For the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, And he hath set the world upon them."
Paul describes certain leaders in the early church as pillars. Obviously he is not saying they are holding up a roof and a building. That's figurative.
The Earth rests on pillars, and earthquakes are caused by shaking them. Literal or not? Psalm 75:3 "
The earth and all its inhabitants quake. I firmly hold its pillars"
Figurative of course.
The Earth rests on pillars, and earthquakes are caused by shaking them. Literal or not? Job 9:6 " Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble."
Job is a highly figurative book with some very literal events described. This is from a dialouge, not just an historical account.
So biblical literalists. Where do YOU draw the line between on literalism, and would a biblical literalist of 500 years ago have come to the same conclusion as you?
Why just go back 500 years, why not 2,000 or more? The Scriptures are clear that Adam was the first man with no suggestion that he was some kind of a hybrid from apes.
To answer your question.
The bible is a mixture of fable, myth and genuine history all blended together. Biblical scholars devote their careers to finding what's literal or not. My answer is that it really does not matter. Things can be true without being historically accurate
Ok, my turn:
Moses and the Burning Bush, literal or figurative?
The feeding of the 5,000, literal or figurative?
The parting of the Red Sea and the Jordon river, literal or figurative?
The incarnation, ressurection and assention of Christ, literal or figurative?
I like this game, let's play some more.
Grace and peace,
Mark
P.S. Willtor, good post, I don't see any real problem with it.
__________________
“Gärtner, by the results of these transformation experiments, was led to oppose the opinion of those naturalists who dispute the stability of plant species and believe in a continuous evolution of vegetation. He perceives in the complete transformation of one species into another an indubitable proof that species are fixed with limits beyond which they cannot change.” (G. Mendel)
Last edited by mark kennedy; 1st February 2006 at 03:23 AM.
They took the Scriptures quite literal, I don't think there is any reason to think they didn't.
vs
Actually this is hyperbole. It does not describe a redemptive event, person or miracle. This is poetic prose, of course it's figurative.
?
__________________ Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us.
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, there's the a pangaea(any contention?) you can find the west extreme in south america, north extreme in europe(I guess,) south extreme in antartica and east extreme in Asia. problem solved. 
Linear Mode
