| Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too. |  | | 
27th December 2005, 12:39 PM
|  | I close my eyes and see you smile

| | Join Date: 11th April 2005
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Reps: 2,082,200,567,380,925,952 (power: 2,082,200,567,380,989) | | | Dropping off some evolution stuff for those who use it as their Bible. By Professor Maciej Giertych
Sometime in 1955, when I was taking Honor Moderations in Science (Botany, Chemistry and Geology) at Oxford University, the O. U. Biology Club announced a lecture against the theory of Evolution. The largest auditorium in the Biology Labs was filled to capacity. When the speaker was introduced (I regret I do not remember his name), it turned out he was an octogenarian with a Ph.D. in biology from Cambridge, obtained in the 19th century. He spoke fervently against the theory of Evolution, defending what was for us an obviously indefensible position. He did not convince anybody with his antique arguments; he did not understand the questions that were fired at him; he rejected science as we knew it. We all had a good laugh hearing this dinosaur. He fought for his convictions against a sophisticated scientific environment, deaf to any opinions inspired by religious beliefs. Today his views are being vindicated by new evidence from natural sciences. May his soul rest in peace.
In 1955, like all in my generation, I was fully convinced that Evolution was an established biological fact. The evidence was primarily paleontological. We were taught how to identify geological strata with the help of fossils, specific for a given epoch. The rocks were dated by the fossils, the fossils by the strata. A lecturer in stratigraphy, when asked during a field trip how the strata were dated, explained that we know the rate of current sedimentation, the depths of strata and thus the age of rocks. In any case, there are new isotopic techniques that confirm all this. This sounded very scientific and convincing.
In my studies I went on to a B.A. and M.A. in forestry, a Ph.D. in plant physiology and finally a D.Sc. in genetics. For a long time I was not bothered by geology, Evolution or any suspicious thoughts. I had my own field of research in population genetics of forest trees, with no immediate relevance to the controversy over Evolution. Gradually, as my children got to the stage of learning biology in school and discussing their problems with Dad, I realized that the evidence for Evolution had shifted from paleontology and embryology to population genetics. But population genetics is my subject! I knew it was used to explain how Evolution progressed, but I was not aware it is used to prove it. Without my noticing it, my special field had become the supplier of the most pertinent evidence supporting the theory.
If Evolution were proved in some field I was not familiar with, I understood the need to accommodate my field to this fact, to suggest explanations how it occurred in terms of genetics. But to claim that these attempted explanations are the primary evidence for the theory was quite unacceptable to me. I started reading the current literature on the topic of Evolution. Until then I was not aware how shaky the evidence for Evolution was, how much of what was “evidence” had to be discarded, how little new evidence had been accumulated over the years, and how very much ideas dominate facts. These ideas have become dogma, yet they have no footing in natural sciences. They stem from materialistic philosophies.
My primary objection as a geneticist was to the claim that the formation of races, or microevolution, as it is often referred to, is a small scale example of macroevolution—the origin of species. Race formation is, of course, very well documented. All it requires is isolation of a part of a population. After a few generations, due to natural selection and genetic drift, the isolated population will irreversibly lose some genes, and thus, as long as the isolation continues, in some features it will be different from the population it arose from. In fact, we do this ourselves all the time when breeding, substituting natural with artificial selection and creating artificial barriers to generative mixing outside the domesticated conditions.
The important thing to remember here is that a race is genetically impoverished relative to the whole population. It has fewer alleles (forms of genes). Some of them are arranged into special, interesting, rare combinations. This is particularly achieved by guided recombination of selected forms in breeding work. But these selected forms are less variable (less polymorphic). Thus what is referred to as micro-evolution represents natural or artificial reduction of the gene pool. You will not get Evolution that way. Evolution means construction of new genes. It means increase in the amount of genetic information, and not reduction of it.
The evolutionary value of new races or selected forms should be demonstrable by natural selection. However, if allowed to mix with the general breeding population, new races will disappear. The genes in select combinations will disperse again; the domesticated forms will go wild. Thus there is no evidence for Evolution here.
Mutations figure prominently in the Evolution story. When in the early ’60s I was starting breeding work on forest trees, everyone was very excited about the potential of artificial mutations. In many places around the world, special “cobalt bomb” centers were established to stimulate rates of mutations. What wonderful things were expected from increased variability by induced mutations. All of this work has long since been abandoned. It led nowhere. All that was obtained were deformed freaks, absolutely useless in forestry.
Maybe occasionally some oddity could be of ornamental value, but never able to live on its own in natural conditions. A glance through literature on mutations outside forestry quickly convinced me that the pattern is similar everywhere. Mutations are either neutral or detrimental. Positive ones, if they do occur, are too rare to be noticeable. Stability in nature is the rule. We have no proofs for Evolution from mutation research.
It is sometimes claimed that strains of diseases resistant to antibiotics, or weeds resistant to herbicides, are evidence for positive mutations. This is not so. Most of the time, the acquired resistance is due to genetic recombination and not due to mutations. Where mutations have been shown to be involved, their role depends on deforming part of the genetic code, which results in a deformed, usually less effective protein that is no longer suitable for attachment by the harmful chemical.
Herbicides are “custom made” for attachability to a vital protein specific for the weed species, and they kill the plant by depriving the protein of its function when attached to it. A mutation that cancels attachability to the herbicide and does not totally deprive the protein of its function is in this case beneficial, since it protects the functionality of the protein. However this is at a price, since in fact the change is somewhat detrimental to normal life processes. At best it is neutral. There are many ways in which living systems protect functionality. This is one of them. Others include healing or eliminating deformed parts or organisms. Natural selection belongs here. So does the immunological adaptation to an invader. Of course such protective adaptations do not create new species, new kinds, new organs or biological systems. They protect what already exists, usually at a cost. Defects accumulate along the way.
Within the genome of a species, that is, in the molecular structure of its DNA, we find many recurrent specific nucleotide sequences, known as “repeats.” Different ones occur in different species. If this variation (neutral as far as we know) arose from random mutations, it should be random. How then did the “repeats” come to be? If mutations are the answer, they could not have been random. In this context “genetic drive” is postulated, as distinct from “genetic drift.” But Who or what does the driving? The empirical science of genetics knows only random mutations.
Currently there are new suggestions that molecular genetics provides evidence for Evolution. Analyses of DNA sequences in various species should show similarities between related ones and big differences between systematically far-removed species. They do exactly that. Molecular genetics generally confirms the accuracy of taxonomy. But at the same time, it does not confirm postulated evolutionary sequences. There are no progressive changes, say from fishes to amphibians, to reptiles to mammals. Molecular genetics confirms systematics, not phylogeny; Linnaeus, not Darwin. No. Genetics has no proofs for Evolution. It has trouble explaining it. The closer one looks at the evidence for Evolution, the less one finds of substance. In fact, the theory keeps on postulating evidence and failing to find it, and moves on to other postulates (fossil missing links, natural selection of improved forms, positive mutations, molecular phylogenetic sequences, etc.). This is not science.
A whole age of scientific endeavor was wasted searching for a phantom. It is time we stopped and looked at the facts! Natural sciences failed to supply any evidence for Evolution. Christian philosophy tried to accommodate this unproved postulate of materialist philosophies. Much time and intellectual effort went in vain, leading only to negative moral consequences. It is time those working in the humanities were told the truth. Stopped in to drop this off.
It is pointless without grace to try to understand God, and so I throw you bones every so often. 
Have a good one, even if you dont take thee time to read this.
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Matthew Chapter 7 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would. | 
27th December 2005, 12:54 PM
|  | with a Touch of Grey 49  | | Join Date: 31st October 2003
Posts: 11,927
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Reps: 77,804,261,751,696,096 (power: 77,804,261,751,717) | | | As a vegetarian, I'm not interested in bones.
As an atheist, I'm not interested in grace.
As a human being, Im not interested in smug remarks.
__________________ It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.
-- Abraham Lincoln
They that would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Ben Franklin | 
27th December 2005, 01:01 PM
| | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 28th August 2004
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So, genetics supports systematics but not evolution? Brilliant statement right there - I bet Aron will love that one. lol | 
27th December 2005, 01:02 PM
|  | I close my eyes and see you smile

| | Join Date: 11th April 2005
Posts: 54,745
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Reps: 2,082,200,567,380,925,952 (power: 2,082,200,567,380,989) | | Oh, forgot to add...
I am not interested in smug remarks either, but this seems the place for them.
AS I saw in the past.
One other thing...I dont hate atheists, I pity them.
When I ponder eternal suffering and fire that does not stop burning, I pity them that they choose that.
I would hope you seek grace to understand that God exists. Just so you know though, it is not my problem. Just giving you some info, and saying Hi.
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Matthew Chapter 7 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would. | 
27th December 2005, 01:05 PM
|  | I close my eyes and see you smile

| | Join Date: 11th April 2005
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Reps: 2,082,200,567,380,925,952 (power: 2,082,200,567,380,989) | | Originally Posted by mikeynov Typically dumb creationist nonsense.
So, genetics supports systematics but not evolution? Brilliant statement right there - I bet Aron will love that one. lol Its always best to cheer others and stand behind their opinions.
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Matthew Chapter 7 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would. | 
27th December 2005, 01:06 PM
|  | with a Touch of Grey 49  | | Join Date: 31st October 2003
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Reps: 77,804,261,751,696,096 (power: 77,804,261,751,717) | | Originally Posted by WarriorAngel Oh, forgot to add...
I am not interested in smug remarks either, but this seems the place for them.
AS I saw in the past.
One other thing...I dont hate atheists, I pity them.
When I ponder eternal suffering and fire that does not stop burning, I pity them that they choose that.
I would hope you seek grace to understand that God exists. Just so you know though, it is not my problem. Just giving you some info, and saying Hi. 
In case you did not know, some people may find your pity offensive.
__________________ It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.
-- Abraham Lincoln
They that would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Ben Franklin | 
27th December 2005, 01:09 PM
| | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 28th August 2004
Posts: 2,000
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Reps: 2,843 (power: 13) | | Originally Posted by WarriorAngel Its always best to cheer others and stand behind their opinions.
The creationist motto on this board must be "it is best to regurgitate nonsense by lying liars in order to support the Good Cause."
Because that's my impression of how things play out, including this thread of yours.
The typical creationist in this forum:
* Has no education whatsoever on evolution but speaks authoritatively on the matter
* Will refuse to admit, ever, in any circumstance, that he or she is wrong on any assertion, despite being shown exactly that by everybody with a clue
* Will regurgitate anything which vaguely reinforces the opinion they held before doing any investigation into the "science" of this issue at all
* Will disappear when seriously challenged by those more educated than them, only to reappear at some later time to regurgitate the same nonsense that was refuted several times before
It's really quite depressing. My honest impression is that your average creationist holds absolutely no regard for the truth or honesty. They know ahead of time what's true, and nothing will stop them from forcing reality into the narrow framework of their woodenly literal interpretation of the bible. | 
27th December 2005, 01:14 PM
| | Senior Veteran 47  | | Join Date: 12th October 2004 Location: Tallahassee
Posts: 2,985
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Reps: 692,329,274,203,046 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by WarriorAngel I am not interested in smug remarks either, but this seems the place for them.
AS I saw in the past.
One other thing...I dont hate atheists, I pity them.
When I ponder eternal suffering and fire that does not stop burning, I pity them that they choose that.
First, thanks for the spam. Our forum needs more spam. And more drive-by posts by people eager to offer things others have written but too intellecually impoverished to discuss them. We definitely need more of that.
Second, I wonder what you make of the Christians who accept evolution?
Third, take your pity and jam it. | 
27th December 2005, 01:22 PM
|  | Raptor Jesus 30  | | Join Date: 23rd December 2005
Posts: 503
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Reps: 879 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by WarriorAngel
One other thing...I dont hate atheists, I pity them.
When I ponder eternal suffering and fire that does not stop burning, I pity them that they choose that.
And I pity you for beleiving what an institution developed to control the population has instilled in you...no free choice, pity. | 
27th December 2005, 02:15 PM
|  | Atheist with a Reason 26  | | Join Date: 24th June 2005
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Reps: 31,029,506,250,719,260 (power: 31,029,506,250,730) | | Originally Posted by WarriorAngel blablabla
I have to agree with the "dude why attempt to educate (and pity  ) people, while you can't even formulate the argument yourself"-sentiment. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |