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  #1  
Old 19th December 2005, 01:52 PM
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Presuppositions re Healing ministry

Just want to think through the presuppositions re healing ministry

1. God can heal
2. God wants us whole
3. Reception of healing and continuation of the healing is dependent on
a. person's willingness to receive
b. person's willingness to let go of sin and change (repentance/change eg of diet or lifestyle)
c. circumstances around the person (eg person lives in an infected area- might need to get out of it so as not to be exposed to the viruses etc)
4.Healing can take time or can be instant, can come in various forms

I often struggle with the issue: Does God WANT TO HEAL THAT SPECIFIC PERSON IN A SPECIFIC WAY (PHYSICALLY) AT A SPECIFIC TIME?

Often, people in healing ministries would say: God wants to heal you now.

How does one reconcile the issue of God's specific will with that statement?

Am not asking to challenge the healing ministry. Am asking it as someone who has to pray for healing for other people and dare not pray in boldness (fear of acting in presumption) at times.
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  #2  
Old 25th December 2005, 06:40 PM
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How will you manifest even a mustard seed of faith with such doubt?
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THE ATONEMENT
(Isa 53:5a) he was wounded for our offenses, and smitten for our wickedness:
for the pain of our punishment was laid upon him,
THE HEALING
(Isa 53:5b
)
additionally with his beatings we are cured.


(M
ark 16.18) ... they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well


[Myhrrhleine Michelle Hunter]
[Merlin for short]

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  #3  
Old 26th December 2005, 01:45 AM
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This line of honest questioning does not doubt God's ability but rather,human honesty and integrity....Presumption can often mask as faith.
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  #4  
Old 26th December 2005, 05:37 AM
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It's an honest question.

The issue is that God wants everyone well NOW.

Now faith is... (Hebrews 11.1)

However, not everyone is at that place. The question I ask in front of a sick person is what can I do to bring them to an increase of faith... the answer is normally HEAR THE WORD (Romans 10.17), but what word? Some people know God is the Healer, but they need to hear that He is the forgiver, the Lover, that He dotes on them and that brings faith for healing.

Keep feeding on the Word, you are heading the right way.

Cheers,
Zzub
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  #5  
Old 26th December 2005, 09:36 AM
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Hello Artos.

"1. God can heal"
I agree, but that doesn't mean that He will heal until after we are resurrected.

"2. God wants us whole"
I agree, but that doesn't mean that we will be made "whole" till after we are resurrected.

"3. Reception of healing and continuation of the healing is dependent on"

As above, I see no place in scripture where God promises that humans will be physically or spiritually whole on this earth.

"a. person's willingness to receive"

We should not turn away a free gift of God like healing if He grants such a thing.

"b. person's willingness to let go of sin and change (repentance/change eg of diet or lifestyle)"

With God's help a Christian would want to amend their life/lifestyle so as to keep their body in as good a shape as possible without abusing it. There is no way to totally be free of our sinful condition, but one should strive to reduce doing those things which would negativey impact one's body.

"c. circumstances around the person (eg person lives in an infected area- might need to get out of it so as not to be exposed to the viruses etc)"

Seems like a repeat of b. Sometimies you can't change things and must deal with what you have.

"4.Healing can take time or can be instant, can come in various forms"

Agree. Healing in an instant would be a miracle and God doesn't do much of that these days. Haven't seen any restored legs or arms at Lourdes lately. But we may help our bodies to be able to fight off disease or illness with proper rest, exercise, diet, medication, etc.

"I often struggle with the issue: Does God WANT TO HEAL THAT SPECIFIC PERSON IN A SPECIFIC WAY (PHYSICALLY) AT A SPECIFIC TIME?"

Not quite sure what you are asking. God wants all His children to be healed in body and soul.

"Often, people in healing ministries would say: God wants to heal you now."
How does one reconcile the issue of God's specific will with that statement?"

The problem is thinking that just because you are a Christian God owes you something, like healing. Scripture never says that. Scripture says the opposite, that disciples will face adversity, illness, persecution, will not have "the good life", will be poor, cursed, beaten, killed. Sure God wants us to be back in the original relationship and state humans were in in the Garden. But that will not happen till we are in heaven with our new bodies. As a matter of face, and I think this is important, we have forgotten that God upholds us and continues to heal us each and every second. If He stopped for even one instant, we would all die immediately. We may not be totally perfect in body, but without God's assistance right now, we wouldn't even exist.

"m not asking to challenge the healing ministry."

I'd probably be viewed as challenging it though. I do challenge the view that perfection in body may be found on earth. Living a godly lifestyle to support our bodies and others would be in line with Christian teaching.

"Am asking it as someone who has to pray for healing for other people and dare not pray in boldness (fear of acting in presumption) at times."

Why not? Your heavenly Father has said he wants you to pray (talk with Him), has promised that He will listen, and that He will answer. It would not be presumption to do what He asks. Just remember that His answer may not be what you want it to be!

Pax
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  #6  
Old 26th December 2005, 09:49 AM
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Bible

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
Hello Artos.

"1. God can heal"
I agree, but that doesn't mean that He will heal until after we are resurrected.
Now that is the unbelief. God's Word is clear: He is the Lord Our Healer... He heals all our diseases.

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
"2. God wants us whole"
I agree, but that doesn't mean that we will be made "whole" till after we are resurrected.
Stop putting the blessings off until later... NOW FAITH IS...

"3. Reception of healing and continuation of the healing is dependent on"

As above, I see no place in scripture where God promises that humans will be physically or spiritually whole on this earth.
[/quote]

Then go and read it. Jesus healed the sick on earth, not in heaven. He told us in Mark 16 to go and do likewise, and in John 14.12 he told us we would do greater works. He told us whatever we ask for, we can receive.

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
"a. person's willingness to receive"

We should not turn away a free gift of God like healing if He grants such a thing.
Which HE DOES!! FREELY!! TO ALL!! James 5, Psalm 103, Matthew 8, 1 Peter 2.24

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
"b. person's willingness to let go of sin and change (repentance/change eg of diet or lifestyle)"

With God's help a Christian would want to amend their life/lifestyle so as to keep their body in as good a shape as possible without abusing it. There is no way to totally be free of our sinful condition, but one should strive to reduce doing those things which would negativey impact one's body.
Mainly agree. Don't smoke or glutton.

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
"c. circumstances around the person (eg person lives in an infected area- might need to get out of it so as not to be exposed to the viruses etc)"

Seems like a repeat of b. Sometimies you can't change things and must deal with what you have.
Remember the Protection of the Lord: Psalm 91.

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
"4.Healing can take time or can be instant, can come in various forms"

Agree. Healing in an instant would be a miracle and God doesn't do much of that these days. Haven't seen any restored legs or arms at Lourdes lately. But we may help our bodies to be able to fight off disease or illness with proper rest, exercise, diet, medication, etc.
I have seen people get out of wheelchairs, I have seen the deaf completely healed, the dead raised. A man with one lung restored to having two. A man with a plate in his back the plate dissolved and the spinal bone regrew. If you do not see many miracles, I would say that is due to your unbelief (read Mark 6 and Matthew 17 - see how Jesus talks to the disciples when they couldn't heal an epileptic)

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
"I often struggle with the issue: Does God WANT TO HEAL THAT SPECIFIC PERSON IN A SPECIFIC WAY (PHYSICALLY) AT A SPECIFIC TIME?"

Not quite sure what you are asking. God wants all His children to be healed in body and soul.

"Often, people in healing ministries would say: God wants to heal you now."
How does one reconcile the issue of God's specific will with that statement?"

The problem is thinking that just because you are a Christian God owes you something, like healing. Scripture never says that. Scripture says the opposite, that disciples will face adversity, illness, persecution, will not have "the good life", will be poor, cursed, beaten, killed. Sure God wants us to be back in the original relationship and state humans were in in the Garden. But that will not happen till we are in heaven with our new bodies. As a matter of face, and I think this is important, we have forgotten that God upholds us and continues to heal us each and every second. If He stopped for even one instant, we would all die immediately. We may not be totally perfect in body, but without God's assistance right now, we wouldn't even exist.
God doesn't OWE you healing, but He has given you healing anyway as a free gift.

Yes, we will suffer in this world: persecution, not sickness.
"m not asking to challenge the healing ministry."

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
I'd probably be viewed as challenging it though. I do challenge the view that perfection in body may be found on earth. Living a godly lifestyle to support our bodies and others would be in line with Christian teaching.

"Am asking it as someone who has to pray for healing for other people and dare not pray in boldness (fear of acting in presumption) at times."

Why not? Your heavenly Father has said he wants you to pray (talk with Him), has promised that He will listen, and that He will answer. It would not be presumption to do what He asks. Just remember that His answer may not be what you want it to be!

Pax
Jesus said ASK AND YOU WILL RECEIVE.
Pax said ASK AND YOU MIGHT GET SOMETHING, BUT NOT WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.

Only one of these two people is correct.

Any takers?

Cheers,
Zzub
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  #7  
Old 26th December 2005, 04:16 PM
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Your faith must be properly placed in order to receive healing, or to heal. Almost everyone has the faith of a mustard seed. It is not quantity of faith but quality that needs to be increased.

Placing your faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at the cross for us, is the only place our faith needs to be. Any where else and you can not receive all the gifts from the Lord.

As for presupposition 3c, if you do not think God can heal you in those circumstances then you are limiting Him. If He can heal leprecy, part the Red Sea, He can defintely heal someone in an highly effected virus area.

Our God is good all the time!!!

We praise you Father for all the healing you have and will administer upon your people Lord!!!

In Christ,
Pro
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Old 26th December 2005, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Artos
This line of honest questioning does not doubt God's ability but rather,human honesty and integrity....Presumption can often mask as faith.
I'm sure it's honest questioning. I don't mean to imply otherwise. But it comes across as a hesitation somewhere deep inside of you. I personally desire your success and health.
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THE ATONEMENT
(Isa 53:5a) he was wounded for our offenses, and smitten for our wickedness:
for the pain of our punishment was laid upon him,
THE HEALING
(Isa 53:5b
)
additionally with his beatings we are cured.


(M
ark 16.18) ... they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well


[Myhrrhleine Michelle Hunter]
[Merlin for short]


Last edited by Merlin; 26th December 2005 at 05:13 PM.
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  #9  
Old 27th December 2005, 06:48 PM
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Hello Zzub.

You are incorrect. There are more Christians who are sick than are well. Or are only healthy Christians true Christians?

Having faith has nothing to do with being physically well.

You posted - "I have seen people get out of wheelchairs, I have seen the deaf completely healed, the dead raised. A man with one lung restored to having two. A man with a plate in his back the plate dissolved and the spinal bone regrew."

This is bunk. Total bunk.

Pax
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  #10  
Old 30th December 2005, 07:45 AM
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Love

Originally Posted by BalaamsAss51
Hello Zzub.

You are incorrect. There are more Christians who are sick than are well. Or are only healthy Christians true Christians?

Having faith has nothing to do with being physically well.

You posted - "I have seen people get out of wheelchairs, I have seen the deaf completely healed, the dead raised. A man with one lung restored to having two. A man with a plate in his back the plate dissolved and the spinal bone regrew."

This is bunk. Total bunk.

Pax
What is bunk?

What I have seen?

I am not lying. Is that what you are accusing me of doing?

God bless you, Pax.

Cheers,
Z
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