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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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  #11  
Old 7th November 2001, 12:30 AM
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Re: Do you have God?

Thank you!

It make so much more sense now. *giggles*
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  #12  
Old 7th November 2001, 01:38 AM
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Re: I have God through faith.

LouisBooth,

I wrote: "Jesus teaches that he who DOES the WILL of the Father will enter the knigdom of heaven. Do you ABIDE in this doctrine?"

You wrote:This is a wrong statement. I was almost with ya till here. As Christ and Paul, and all the other NT writers say, it is faith alone. That's all it takes to be saved. Paul also goes on to say it is not of works that no man should boast (ie doing the will of God, circumsion, good works, etc..).
Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shll enter the kingdom of heven, but he who DOES the WILL of my Father in heaven."

You say this statement is wrong Louis. I thought you have accepted Jesus as your LORD. Is this the way to show your submission to the authority of your LORD and Savior? Don't you know that REJECTING what Jesus says is REJECTING Jesus? And don't you know that he who REJECTS Jesus REJECTS Him who SENT Jesus? And you have the gall to say you have God?

I wrote:"Jesus teaches that he who BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED will be saved. Do you ABIDE in this doctrine?"

You wrote:Agreed, there is only ONE verse in the whole bible that says it is required to be saved, and NONE of the early manuscripts have contain this verse. I will go with yes, you should be baptised, but like the theif on the cross, you don't have to be in order to be saved.
Mark 16:15-16: (15)And he said to them, "Go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (16)He who believes AND is baptized will be saved."

Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

These verses reveal your IGNORANCE Louis because you said there is only ONE verse in the whole Bible that says it is required to be saved. Jesus says he who believes AND is baptized will be saved. Then he COMMANDS his apostles to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Did the apostles obey Jesus' command? Sure they did. Apostle Peter preached the gospel (Acts 2:3 and those who gladly received his words (believed) were baptized and ADDED to them (Acts 2:41). "...And the Lord ADDED to the church daily those that WERE BEING sav (Acts 2:47).

You say that like the thief on the cross, you don't have to be batized to be saved. As you can see, this belief clearly CONTRADICTS[/c] what the Bible teaches. Acts 2:41 and 47 proves that those who bel and are baptized are ADDED to the church to be saved.

The thief on the cross was NOT covered by this command because he was still under the law and all it needed for him to be saved was to believe and have faith in Jesus.

This command regarding baptism was given by Jesus AFTER God raised him from the dead.

I wrote:"Ask yourself this question my friend: Do I have God?"

You wrote:Yup, I sure do through the blood of Christ. That's all it takes, belief that Christ is your savior. Eps. 2:8-10 "For it is y grace you have been saved, throgh fiaht, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jeus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." faith alone. nuff said.
In the light of what apostle John wrote in 2 John 9, your belief that you have God is FALSE!

Even if you cut out from your Bible the following verses: 2 John 9, Matthew 7:21, Mark 16:15-16, Matthew 28:19, John 8:40 and John 17:3, and pretend NOT to know them, what you really have is a FALSE expectation that you are saved.

The TRUTH is, anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (John 3:1 .

Shouldn't you love your life more than your friends who taught you these false doctrines?

Ed
  #13  
Old 7th November 2001, 02:14 AM
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I have God through faith.

"Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shll enter the kingdom of heven, but he who DOES the WILL of my Father in heaven."

You say this statement is wrong Louis. "

:lol: no I don't ed. That's the proof, just like James says. they will know you are christians by your love (because you do the will of God) but that doesn't mean you HAVE to do this. Its a natural thing. Again do I need to point you to eps 2:8-10 not by works, only by grace though faith. very plainly said. These verses do not clash ed, do you see the answer..its faith.

"Mark 16:15-16: (15)And he said to them, "Go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (16)He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.""

This verse was not in the orginal manuscripts and most scholars agree that it was inserted later. Baseing docterine on this is just plain stupid.

"These verses reveal your IGNORANCE Louis because you said there is only ONE verse in the whole Bible that says it is required to be saved. "

Did that verse in Mat say you have to be bapsted to be saved? No, so you're the ignorant one ed, did you want me to list the 50000000 verses or so in the bible that say faith alone? hmm? Start with Eps 2:8-10, Gal 2:16 , 1 tim 1:14, 2 thes 2:13..thats just for starters..on and here is something else to think about ed,

Col 2:9For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in blodily form.....

"Did the apostles obey Jesus' command? "

yeah, so did Judus..he wasn't saved. It was the will of God that he betray christ.

"The thief on the cross was NOT covered by this command because he was still under the law and all it needed for him to be saved was to believe and have faith in Jesus.

This command regarding baptism was given by Jesus AFTER God raised him from the dead."

:lol: funny how you have to say, well except here and except there..:lol: the truth has no exceptions ed, baptism was somehing that was done long before Christ died. It was significant then too, or Christ wouldn't have done it himself. Your ideas here are wrong.

"Even if you cut out from your Bible the following verses: 2 John 9, Matthew 7:21, Mark 16:15-16, Matthew 28:19, John 8:40 and John 17:3, and pretend NOT to know them, what you really have is a FALSE expectation that you are saved. "

Ed, you being ignorant in your ideas of what I believe I'll go down the list for you.

2 john 9 I have not run ahead of Christ, I am keeping right in line with what he taught, it is you that have lost the saltiness of the gospel.

Matthew 7:21 I know this,a mouthly confession means nothing, for According to the bible God judges the heart, so I'll be in heaven.

Matthew 28:19 I do baptise, in the trinity name funny how you don't. It is not something required to be saved though. Don't remember the disciples getting baptised either, by water anyway.. :lol:

Mark 16..you know that this wasn't in the orginal manuscripts yet you base your WHOLE theology on this one verse that has no equal to it in the whole bible saying you must be baptised to be saved. Not smart at all.

John 8:40 this should be read with John 1:1 in mind, John already stated that Christ was divine. context.

John 17:3 Funny how this is the same at 8:40 to be read in context of what he has already stated in John 1:1 but then he goes on to say in 17:10 that everything God has Christ has, ie power, omnipotence..wow..wouldn't that make him..*gasp* God :lol: yeah, it would wouldn't it.He also says he is one with God...ie hint hint trinity.




  #14  
Old 7th November 2001, 02:19 AM
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Re: I have God through faith.

Ed shut up already.
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  #15  
Old 7th November 2001, 02:22 AM
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Re: I have God through faith.

Hey, Jeff as frustrating as he because he just doesn't "get it" we have to play nice
  #16  
Old 7th November 2001, 02:39 AM
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Re: Do you have God?

ZoneChaos,

I wrote: You may think you are saved because you were made to believe that by accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior you are saved.

You wrote:Jesus said as much.
Please show the scripture that supports your statement for the benefit of other readers.

I wrote: You may think you are a Christian because you were made to believe that character, love, peace and joy are trademarks of a Christian.

You wrote:They are evidence of a Christian life.
But these traits do NOT make anyone a TRUE Christian. The Bible teaches that disciples of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). And disciples of Christ are those who believe in him and ABIDE in his words (John 8:31). Thus, only those who ABIDE in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST are fit to be called Christians.

I wrote:But if you DON'T abide in the doctrine of Christ, will you be saved? NO way! Anyone who does NOT have God does NOT have the SON and does NOT have life (1 John 5:12).

You wrote:The doctrine of Salvation. is salvation. Obvioulsy if you do not have it, you are not saved.
What is that doctrine of salvation? Please show scripture to support your statement for the benefit of other readers.

I wrote: Jesus teaches that he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God. Do you ABIDE in this doctrine?

You wrote:I was taught and beleive this...
Please be HONEST Zone. Do you HONESTLY believe this? In another topic, you posted that you believe Jesus is still God (cf. "Ed, what do you think - Part 2). How can you say you were taught and you believe that the FATHER is the ONLY true God, yet at the SAME time believe that the SON is still God?

I wrote:Jesus teaches that he who DOES the WILL of the Father will enter the knigdom of heaven. Do you ABIDE in this doctrine?

You wrote:Yep.. so far so good...
Eph. 1:9-10 NKJV (9)"having made known to us the mystery of His WILL, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, (10)that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might GATHER together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in him."

Eph. 1:9-10 TEV (9)"God did what he had purposed, and made known to us the secret plan he had already decided to complete by means of Christ. (10) This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth with Christ as HEAD."

John 11:51-52 TEV (51)"Actually he did not say this of his own accord; rather, as he was High Priest that year, he ws prophesying that Jesus was going to die for the Jewish people, (52)and not only for them, but also to bring together into ONE all the scattered people of God."

Col. 1:18:[.b] "And he is the of the BODY, the church...."[/i]

The WILL of the Father is to GATHER together into ONE BODY all those who will be saved. And that BODY is the church of Christ which Christ purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 LAMSA).

Have you been gathered INTO this ONE BODY Zone? What proof can you show that the ONE BODY where you believe you have been gathered into is the TRUE body of Christ?

I wrote: Jesus teaches that he who BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED will be saved. Do you ABIDE in this doctrine?

You wrote:Yes I do, though baptism does not save you.
How were you gathered into this ONE BODY or church Zone? Was it not through baptism? Can anyone be ADDED to a Seventh Day Adventist or a Baptist, or a Methodist church, etc. without baptism?

Jesus commanded his apostles to preach the gospel and said that anyone who believes AND is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:15-16).

Jesus commanded his apostles to make disciples of all nations BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).

The apostles prached the gospel and those who believed were baptized and ADDED to them (Acts 2:38-41). And daily, they ADDED to the church those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

How can one who is NOT baptized into the true BODY or church of Christ have God?

I wrote: Jesus teaches that he who ENTERS by him will be saved. Do you ABIDE in this doctrine?

[/b]You wrote:[/b]Interesting wording.. but if you mean that we are saved through Christ, then yes...
John 10:9: "I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved..."

John 10:7: "Then Jesus said to them again, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

Jesus is NOT saying that "we are saved through him." Jesus is saying that anyone who ENTERS by him will be saved. Clearly, Jesus is referring to ENTERING the sheepfold (John 10:1) or flock or church of Christ (Acts 20:28 LAMSA).

Have you entered the sheepfold by the doctrines of Christ Zone? How can one who doesn't believe what Jesus says have God?
  #17  
Old 7th November 2001, 02:57 AM
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I'll play nice if I have to

Thus, only those who ABIDE in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST are fit to be called Christians.
Proud to say I do that myself although not to perfection. None of us do.

Have you been gathered INTO this ONE BODY Zone? What proof can you show that the ONE BODY where you believe you have been gathered into is the TRUE body of Christ?

Show proof that he is not. Show proof that none of us are for that matter.

How can one who is NOT baptized into the true BODY or church of Christ have God?
If you are saved you are baptized by the Holy Spirit and you are not saved just by immersion. That is merely a public representation of what has already happened.

Have you entered the sheepfold by the doctrines of Christ Zone? How can one who doesn't believe what Jesus says have God?
ZC believes what Jesus said. So do I. We have entered and boy it is nice!
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  #18  
Old 7th November 2001, 03:41 AM
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Re: Do you have God?

Please show the scripture that supports your statement for the benefit of other readers.
ok. first.. think aboutnwhat you said: "because you were made to believe that by accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior you are saved." Look closer... "accepting Jesus as SAVIOR...you are SAVED." That about sums it up right there. If this does not save you.. then who / what does? Obviously, to you, Jesus does not save.. which would follow statements I have heard from your church.. of coarse that is a false doctrine... Jesus does save, despite what you may beleive.

Now for a couple verses that support, and illustrate my statement:

Romans 10:13 "That If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

That's it. Confess, beleive, accept as Lord... BAM! Ye be saved, brother. Oh, and by the way.. all of this is pretty much instantaneous.. not some drawn out process with approval hearings and probations...

But these traits do NOT make anyone a TRUE Christian.
No, they do not.

Do you HONESTLY believe this?
Yes.

How can you say you were taught and you believe that the FATHER is the ONLY true God, yet at the SAME time believe that the SON is still God?
IU thought you understood the trinity.. hm.. le tme say it this way.. I do beleive the Father is the only true God. I do beleive the Son is the only true God. I do beleive the spirit is the only true God. I do beleove that the Father, Son as Holy Spirit are 3 seperate "persons" (entities, etc...). I do beleive the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Only true God. I do belvie there is only one true living God. Do any of these statements (which do not contradict each other), contradict anything in the Bible?

Have you been gathered INTO this ONE BODY Zone? What proof can you show that the ONE BODY where you believe you have been gathered into is the TRUE body of Christ?
Ahh.. asking for proof you cannot show yourself? I canot show proof.. and I will admit that. I can only know me relationship with God is real. I can't prove it to you.. not objectively, which is what you are asking.

How were you gathered into this ONE BODY or church Zone?
Please refer to my first response in this post.

Was it not through baptism?
It was not. If it was.. would we need Jesus?

Can anyone be ADDED to a Seventh Day Adventist or a Baptist, or a Methodist church, etc. without baptism?
I would assume so.. but then are we talking about being a Christian or joining a membership of a denomination? I my self worship as a non-denominationalist. So I can't really speak for any of these.

Jesus commanded his apostles to preach the gospel and said that anyone who believes AND is baptized will be saved
Baptism always follows salvation.. it never come sbefoe.. Let me ask you.. was the thief on the cross saved? Can anyone on ther death bed.. seconds from dying be saved without getting up, finding a fountain, or lake, or toilet or drinking fountain and getting wet? Must people who beleive, but do not gt baptized before they have a chance to be ignored despite their belief?

How can one who is NOT baptized into the true BODY or church of Christ have God?
The same eay those woh are baptized are part of the Body... salvation.
  #19  
Old 7th November 2001, 09:56 AM
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Re: I'll play nice if I have to

PrinceJeff,

I wrote: Thus, only those who ABIDE in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST are fit to be called Christians.

You wrote:Proud to say I do that myself although not to perfection. None of us do.
Is Jesus God PrinceJeff? If you say he is, then you DON'T abide in Christ's doctrine that the FATHER is the ONLY true God. You may shout to the world that you have God but in the eyes of God, you HAVEN'T.

I wrote: Have you been gathered INTO this ONE BODY Zone? What proof can you show that the ONE BODY where you believe you have been gathered into is the TRUE body of Christ?

[/b]You wrote:[/b]Show proof that he is not. Show proof that none of us are for that matter.
You are NOT a member in particular of the TRUE body or church of Christ where I belong. Neither can you show proof that you are a member of the true body or church of Christ where you THINK you belong.

Is the "local" church of which you are now a member of, the true body or church of Christ?

I wrote: How can one who is NOT baptized into the true BODY or church of Christ have God?

You wrote:If you are saved you are baptized by the Holy Spirit and you are not saved just by immersion. That is merely a public representation of what has already happened.
Please show scripture to support your FALSE belief. Just as people of old were NOT saved from the flood because they did not enter the ark, nobody will be saved first before they are gathered into the body or church of Christ.

Jesus died for the church, his body (Eph. 5:25). Jesus purchsed the church, his body, with his own blood (Acts 20:2 . Jesus is the SAVIOR of the church, his body (Eph. 5:23). It is only INSIDE the body or church of Christ where there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

Therefore, OUTSIDE the body or church of Christ, there is NO salvation. Thus, your doctrine is FALSE.

I wrote: Have you entered the sheepfold by the doctrines of Christ Zone? How can one who doesn't believe what Jesus says have God?

You wrote:ZC believes what Jesus said. So do I. We have entered and boy it is nice!
Ignorance is bliss PrinceJeff but that dos NOT guarantee salvation. As Jesus says, you will die in your sins because you do not believe.

Ed
  #20  
Old 7th November 2001, 08:25 PM
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Re: I'll play nice if I have to

Is Jesus God PrinceJeff? If you say he is, then you DON'T abide in Christ's doctrine that the FATHER is the ONLY true God. You may shout to the world that you have God but in the eyes of God, you HAVEN'T.
I have God.

You are NOT a member in particular of the TRUE body or church of Christ where I belong. Neither can you show proof that you are a member of the true body or church of Christ where you THINK you belong.
Yeah I know I am not a member of your denomination, Eddo. And I can give you plenty of proof, but as heretical as you are you would not believe me.

Is the "local" church of which you are now a member of, the true body or church of Christ?
Yes.

Please show scripture to support your FALSE belief. Just as people of old were NOT saved from the flood because they did not enter the ark, nobody will be saved first before they are gathered into the body or church of Christ.
My belief is not false. And when you are saved you enter the body of Christ.

Jesus died for the church, his body (Eph. 5:25). Jesus purchsed the church, his body, with his own blood (Acts 20:2 . Jesus is the SAVIOR of the church, his body (Eph. 5:23). It is only INSIDE the body or church of Christ where there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).
Agreed there.

Therefore, OUTSIDE the body or church of Christ, there is NO salvation. Thus, your doctrine is FALSE.
I am not outside the body and neither are Louis, ZC, Josephus, Michael, or any other Christian here. And by the way I am not false.

Ignorance is bliss PrinceJeff but that dos NOT guarantee salvation. As Jesus says, you will die in your sins because you do not believe.
I do believe Ed and I am not ignorant so drop your slanderous statements. How much BS has Felix "The Cat" Manalo fed you?
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