Neanderthal Evolution

Loudmouth · #**141** 19th December 2005, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by john crawford

My postion is that Neanderthal Man was sapient from the beginning and is ancestral to all Homo sapiens, whether in Africa or any other part of the world.

What evidence led you to this conclusion?

Loudmouth · #**142** 19th December 2005, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by john crawford

Yes, get rid of all those Homo erectus fossils. Burn 'em or something. Re-bury them! Cremate them!

Shall we start this fire with books, my Führer?

The modern Out of Africa Model is the perfect solution for getting rid of a whole species of humans even if they do leave some fossil evidence of their 1.5 million year existance on the planet before those sapiens got invented.

Yes, we are so silly for using evidence as a basis for our conclusions. Shame on us.

grmorton · #**143** 19th December 2005, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gracchus

I know that there are some anthropologists who think neanderthals contributed to the human genome, but recent work seems to have cast that theory into doubt. Still that was mitochondrial evidence and would not rule out descent from a male neanderthal.

I remember reading somewhere (Scientific American?) the idea that blonde hair and blue eyes were neanderthal traits. Also, there was a burial in the caves of Mount Carmel in Israel that showed both modern and neanderthal traits.

Why bother with Scientific American when one can go to the actual source:

“Both African and non-African data suggest that the time to the most recent common ancestor is ~1 million years and that the age of the global 314 variant is 650,00 years. On this time scale, ages for the Eurasian-distributed Val60Leu, Val92Met, and Arg163Gln variants are 250,000-100,000 years; the ages for African silent variants—Leu106Leu,Cys273Cys, and Phe300Phe—are 100,000-40,000 years. For the European red hair-associated Arg151cys and Arg160Trp variants, we estimate an age of ~80,000 years; for Asp294His, and Ser316Ser, we estimate an age of <= 30,000 years. “ Rosalind M. Harding et al, “Evidence for Variable Selective Pressures at MC1R,” Am. J. Human Genetics, 66(2000):1351-1361, p. 1357

Africans seem not to have this particular variant of melanocortin and thus it is hard to claim that this gene came out of Africa with the rest of our genome. One other thing, red heads and blonds seem to be able to withstand cold and avoid frostbite better than darker skinned people. This would be a very strange mutation to arise in hot humid Africa.

“Studies of MC1R polymorphism have been made in European, African and Asian populations. Valverde et al, Box et al, and Smith et al reported 18 variants of MC1R in red hair/fair skin individuals. In a recent study by Rana et al, Africans were reported to be lack of variation while six variants were found in Asian populations.” Shi Peng, Xue Mei Lu, Huai Rong Luo, Jin-Gong Xiang-Yu, Ya Ping Zhang, “Melanocortin-1 Receptor Gene Variants in Four Chinese Ethnic Populations,” Cell Research, 11(2001):81-84

“In our preliminary study we sampled six Africans, four Chinese, two Indians, and three European descendants. The Africans showed a surprising lack of variation, while new variants were found in the Chinese studied.”Brinda K. Rana et al, “High Polymorphism at the Human Melanocortin 1 Receptor Locus,” Genetics, 151(1999):1547-1557, p. 1548

Two studies report on the age of this gene and they agree that it is older than modern humans:

Age of Melanocortin-1. To see whether an allele can reach such a high frequency in short time without selective advantage, we calculate the mean first arrival time of the arg163gln variant using frequency data from the Chinese population….For an effective population size, N, in the range of 2000 to 5000 and for 20 per generation, the mean first arrival time is in the range of 71,100 to 175,200yr. Note that the latter value is already much larger than the age of modern humans (~100,000 yr), though the N value of 5000 is small compared to recent Chinese population sizes.” Brinda K. Rana et al, “High Polymorphism at the Human Melanocortin 1 Receptor Locus,” Genetics, 151(1999):1547-1557, p. 1555

Even the age of the rest of the genes is greater than modern human times. This means that this is an input to modern humans from ancient non-modern hominids.

The age (T, 10^3 yr) of the MRCA of human sequences

Sequences Ne Tmode Tmean 95% interval

All samples

...........10,000 1,520 1,577 856–2,392

...........12,000 1,325 1,412 739–2,227

...........15,000 1,104 1,220 612–2,004

Africans

............6,000 1,536 1,573 946–2,218

............8,000 1,382 1,473 838–2,182

...........10,000 1,288 1,365 744–2,088

Non-Africans

...........6,000....768...811 389–1,344

...........7,000....694...766 358–1,299

...........8,000....646...728 339–1,248

The average mutation rate (2.16 x 10^4/sequence/genera- All sequences tion) was used. “

Kateryna D. Makova, Michele Ramsay, Tefor Jenkins and Wen-Hsiung Li, “Human DNA Sequence Variation in a 6.6-kb Region Containing the Melanocortin 1 Receptor Promoter,” Genetics 158(2001, 1253-1268, p. 1263

john crawford · #**144** 19th December 2005, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nathan Poe

Crawford science:

1: Concoct an idea with plenty of emotional buzzwords such as "neo-darwinist racism"

2: Destroy any evidence which falsifies said idea.

Sniff.

Better to destroy evidence which supports a genocidal theory of mass extinction and replacement of the world's population by an African species of Homo sapiens who would one day rule the world of science in the name of neo-Darwinism, than to have imagined and theorized such a spectre of human annhilation in the first place. If I could just get my hands on some of those pesky Homo erectus fossils, I'd rattle their bones good.

Grengor · #**145** 19th December 2005, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by john crawford

Better to destroy evidence which supports a genocidal theory of mass extinction and replacement of the world's population by an African species of Homo sapiens who would one day rule the world of science in the name of neo-Darwinism, than to have imagined and theorized such a spectre of human annhilation in the first place. If I could just get my hands on some of those pesky Homo erectus fossils, I'd rattle their bones good.

Yes! He's found out our secrets! Neo Darwinist are out to RULE THE WORLD! Bwahahahahahahaha!

Quickly, Team Darwin, assemble! JCrawford is on our case, we must eliminate him!

"If I could just get my hands on some of those pesky Homo erectus fossils, I'd rattle their bones good."
Ah yes, so it comes out finally, a parody! How amusing.

john crawford · #**146** 19th December 2005, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by h2whoa

John, you are on my ignore list so I only see what people quote.

But seriously, you need help.

Obviously, I'm not getting any from you. Thanks anyway. Bye.

john crawford · #**147** 19th December 2005, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Caphi

Is that so? What was it... something like "Neo-Darwinist race theorists, by calling everyone H. sapiens sapiens, attribute to us white people an ancestry which can only be claimed by African people." Something along those lines. Now what does that mean if not "African people only descended from Homo species"?

I'm not sure. You seem to have misunderstood or misinterpreted something I wrote.

Status quo theorizes that all humans descended from hominids who happened to live in Africa. You claim that only Africans descended from these hominds and that whites descended from European Neanderthals.

I don't even use the word "hominid" when referring to people.

But weren't you recently decrying the theory that all humans emerged from African hominids as "racist"?

Yes. It is racist to call African people hominids.

And now you yourself are supporting a theory which gives all humans as descending from Mediterranean Neanderthals. Doesn't that make you racist as well?

How? Neanderthals were real people who descended from Noah. They certainly weren't African hominids who shared a common ancestry with African monkeys and apes like neo-Darwinist race theorists would say of their ancestors.

john crawford · #**148** 20th December 2005, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Loudmouth

Yes, we are so silly for using evidence as a basis for our conclusions. Shame on us.

Yes, really, since there is no evidence on which your conclusions are based.

At least, you never present any.

Freodin · #**149** 20th December 2005, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by john crawford

How? Neanderthals were real people who descended from Noah. They certainly weren't African hominids who shared a common ancestry with African monkeys and apes like neo-Darwinist race theorists would say of their ancestors.

Look here, people, and see the real point of John´s "argument". It is not about genes, Neanderthals, fossils or evidence.

It is nothing but the age-old line of "heck, I´m no stoopid munky. I´m a reel hooman."

So Neanderthals were "real people" - and of course we all know that "real people" are not descended from anything, but got handcrafted by God himself!

Racist Neo-Darwinist, take that and despair!

Loudmouth · #**150** 20th December 2005, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by john crawford

Better to destroy evidence which supports a genocidal theory of mass extinction and replacement of the world's population by an African species of Homo sapiens who would one day rule the world of science in the name of neo-Darwinism, than to have imagined and theorized such a spectre of human annhilation in the first place. If I could just get my hands on some of those pesky Homo erectus fossils, I'd rattle their bones good.

From this statement I have made a list of books that John would pile up and burn:

Any book that discusses the killing of Native Americans during the Westward expansion of European Americans.

Any book that discusses the Jewish Holocaust in Hitler's Germany.

Any book that discusses the genocide that occurred in the former Yugoslavian state.

Any book that discusses the replacement of native tribes by Hebrews (guess we have to burn the Bible).

Need I go on?