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Originally posted by VOW The wounds on the Figure shown on the Shroud coincide completely with all of the wounds of Christ described in the Bible.
And a medieval forger would have no knowledge of these?
__________________ ~~RvFvS~~ Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time. Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species. Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.
The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.
Originally posted by RufusAtticus Except the shroud of turin is not from a mummy. You wouldn't happen to have evidence that says that microorganisms affect the shroud of turin dating?
extrinsic C14 incorporation in the linen of the shroud has been proposed by Researchers J. Mattingly and L. Garza-Vermes at the University of Texas in San Antonio, experts on the biogenic varnishes deposited on archaeological artifacts by bacteria and fungi. Upon examination of the shroud by Dr. Garza, heavy contamination was found. The radiocarbonists who tested the shroud samples also measured the C14 of the bacteria, fungi, and the bioplastic varnish deposited as a result of the symbiosis between the two organisms. The 1988 radiocarbon dating is the result of an averaging of the remaining C14 of the original linen with that of the microorganisms Lichenothelia and Rhodococcus and their resultant calcium carbonate varnish.
I posted a link detailing how contaminants can skew C-14 dating, in Post #51.
Basically the answer is this: C-14 dating is used to determine the age of a living organism beginning from the time of death. A living organism stops ingesting carbon in a fixed ration of C-12 to C-14, so the amount of decay of the C-14 can give an indication of the time that has passed since the organism died. In the instance of the Shroud, the date would be determined from the time the flax plant was harvested to create the linen cloth.
However, if a LIVING ORGANISM is present on the surface of the cloth, those particular live forms are still ingesting carbon, in the fixed ratio of C-12 to C-14. Therefore, the sample will contain more C-14 than it would if it contained just the linen alone.
I really don't think we need to get into an intense discussion of radioisotopes and half-lives and rates of decay.
1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
If the Shroud of Turin is a forgery of the 14th century, as the radiocarbonists claim, and not a genuine artifact of the 1st century, all of these qualities of the purported medieval "forger" must be accepted. If the Shroud was "forged" it would have to have been painted.
extrinsic C14 incorporation in the linen of the shroud has been proposed by Researchers J. Mattingly and L. Garza-Vermes at the University of Texas in San Antonio, experts on the biogenic varnishes deposited on archaeological artifacts by bacteria and fungi. Upon examination of the shroud by Dr. Garza, heavy contamination was found. The radiocarbonists who tested the shroud samples also measured the C14 of the bacteria, fungi, and the bioplastic varnish deposited as a result of the symbiosis between the two organisms. The 1988 radiocarbon dating is the result of an averaging of the remaining C14 of the original linen with that of the microorganisms Lichenothelia and Rhodococcus and their resultant calcium carbonate varnish.
And the scientific paper in which they show this?
__________________ ~~RvFvS~~ Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time. Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species. Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.
The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.
This article was published in 3 parts in The Glyph, the journal of The Archaeological Institute of America, San Diego, Vol 1, No. 10 (Sept 1997); No. 11 (Dec 1977); No. 12 (March 1998).
Originally posted by s0uljah Its doubtful, due to the detail of the whipping wounds. (They match Roman whips perfectly as they have rounded impact marks, which are unique)
The forger knew this for the same reason we do. He could read Latin.
The coins on the eyes were not described in the Bible either.
The forger knew this for the same reason we do. He could read Latin.
__________________ ~~RvFvS~~ Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time. Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species. Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.
The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.
I think the forger was also incredibly intuitive to locate a strip of linen containing the weave characteristic of 1st Century Palestine and imbed within the weave pollen particles also indigenous to not only 1st Century Palestine, BUT ALSO the time of year of the actual Crucifixion as described in Scripture.
Depicting the TWO SEPARATE blood flow patterns, showing how the Crucifixion Figure in the Shroud had to raise and lower himself in order to breathe was also a very clever ploy of the forger, considering that blood spatter patterns is a relatively new forensic investigative study.
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