Shroud of Turin proven genuine by REAL science

Chris†opher Paul · #41 30th September 2002, 10:47 AM

You CAN NOT paint something with these properties:

RufusAtticus · #42 30th September 2002, 10:48 AM

Looks like one painting morphing into another painting.

TheBear · #43 30th September 2002, 10:48 AM

Thanks for the link, s0uljah.

Like I said before, I am merely questioning two aspects of this conversation.

1) That fire altered the results of C-14 dating.

2) That modern organic contamination altered the C-14 results.

John

Chris†opher Paul · #44 30th September 2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Looks like one painting morphing into another painting.

The point is to show you the distortion and its relation to a real painting.

 

Chris†opher Paul · #45 30th September 2002, 10:49 AM

That modern organic contamination altered the C-14 results.

This is a fact. The fire may or may not have effected it. But as the Mummy wraps showed, you can't date something like this with C14

RufusAtticus · #46 30th September 2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by s0uljah
You CAN NOT paint something with these properties:

Wow. Jesus's face was only an inch deep! Those 3d properties are reminiscent of a releif carving and not a real face.

Chris†opher Paul · #47 30th September 2002, 10:52 AM

Where did you get 1 inch from, and how did this ingenious faker know to create 3D properties that would be detected by NASA technology 700 years later?

TheBear · #48 30th September 2002, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by VOW
To Bear:

The Shroud is NOT a painting, though. That much is known. The markings of the body are SCORCH marks. These markings were tested for all known pigments used as paint in the time frame of the discovery of the Shroud.

Plus...it's a negative image. In the 1300s there was no such thing as photography, and a negative image was unknown.

Yes, in C-14 dating, the sample is completely burned, and the residual carbon is tested for the proportion of C-14 to C-12. Using the known decay period of C-14, the date of the object can be estimated.

C-14 dating is based upon the concept of all living objects ingesting carbon as part of the diet. The amount of C-14 (radioactive carbon) remains constant as long as the living object is ALIVE. Once it dies, there is no more carbon ingested, and the proportion of C-12 to C-14 over time changes.

The linen of the Shroud is such an object which can be tested. Once the flax plant was harvested and the linen created from it, the ingestion of C-14 ceased. Cut a piece of that cloth, and test it for C-14, and voila, you can get a date.

HOWEVER: This piece of cloth was exposed to a fire. How hot? I personally don't know, but the wood and metal coffin the cloth was stored in caught fire, the metal started to melt, and the cloth was pulled out, with parts of it in flames. In pictures of the Shroud, you can see the diamond-shaped areas which were "mended" by the nuns. The burned portions follow the folds of how the cloth was laid in the box.

As for your reference, that's great. Scientists are going to line up on one side or the other, and counting experts isn't a valid way of "proving" anything. The fact that the fine folks at McCrone Research Institute say the image was PAINTED makes me cast a wary eye towards their "expert" opinion, because the image most certainly was NOT.

If your faith is based entirely upon whether or not this Image is a fake, then perhaps your faith is flimsy indeed. All I can offer is that *I* personally believe it is real. And even if a manufacture date is discovered somewhere on the thing, and it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the thing is a bigger ruse than Milli Vanilli, that won't affect my belief one iota.

Faith, as always, goes by what's in your heart.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Thanks VOW.

But this topic has absolutely nothing to do with my faith in God.

Does it have any bearing on your faith in God?

We are talking about scientific evaluation of an artifact. Stay with me on this. Let's not jump to the wild conclusion that since one is analyzing the accuracy of dating methods, or the authenticity of the shroud, that their faith in God is any more or any less than yours. Okay?

You are the one who made the claim that the fire skewed the C-14 results. I am asking you to back up that claim with sources and details.

I look forward to any scientific evedence that backs up your claim that fire or high temperatures skew C-14 results.

Thanks,
John

RufusAtticus · #49 30th September 2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by s0uljah
Where did you get 1 inch from,

By comparing depth of the image to it's height and width.

and how did this ingenious faker know to create 3D properties that would be detected by NASA technology 700 years later?

The image was created by a 3D object, except it wasn't a human head. A releif carving used like a stamp would produce the 3D pattern that you showed.

TheBear · #50 30th September 2002, 11:27 AM

BTW, my faith in God is not based on shrouds, crying statues, stained glass images, stratoshperic phenomena, or any such "signs". Nor do these things support my faith, one iota.