Shroud of Turin proven genuine by REAL science

IF what they say is true, how come those mummy wraps that I mentioned were dated wrong as well, after going through the same testing procedures as the Shroud?

Please provide sources and details.


Thanks,
John

Oh, and here is the first sentence from that site Bear...

"According to Dr. Walter McCrone and his colleagues at McCrone Associates, the 3+ by 14+ foot cloth depicting Christ's crucified body is an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist just before its first appearance in recorded history in 1356."

That is blatantly false. The history of the Shroud goes back much further than the date given by the C14 tests. :rolleyes:

 

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AD 33

The Gospels record the life, death, burial, and the subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ. The first historical evidence of the Shroud comes from the Gospels. So, we have eye-witnesses that place the burial cloth at the site of the tomb.

"Now after these things Joseph of Arimathea, because he was a disciple of Jesus (although for fear of the Jews a secret one), besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus. And Pilate gave permission. He came, therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there also came Nicodemus (who at first had come to Jesus by night), bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, in weight about a hundred pounds. They therefore took the body of Jesus and wrapped it in linen cloths with the spices, after the Jewish manner of preparing for burial." John 19:38-40

"Simon Peter therefore came following him, and went into the tomb, saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief which has been about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded in a place by itself." John 20:6-7

AD 33+

The Shroud was taken by one of the apostles to Edessa.

"In the Middle East, religious relics were a source of political status and power and often had a talismanic potency, being seen as protection of the city that owned them, warding off foreign invasions and natural disasters alike. Known as palladia, every city had such a holy prophylactic. In Edessa, it was the Mandylion." (cf: Lyn Picknett & Clive Prince, Turin Shroud, 1994)

The Mandylion, literally "little handkerchief" is also known as Akheiropoietos - "not made by human hands". These refered to the image of Christ on a cloth. While in Constantinople, the image was known as "The Mandylion", a Byzantine word.

AD 525

The Image of Edessa dissapears from history until a flood destroys Edessa. While rebuilding the city, the builders discover the secret chamber on the West Gate of the city where the Shroud was hidden.

AD 640

Arculphus was a pilgrim in Jerusalem where he saw and kissed the "winding-sheet of the Lord which was placed over his head in the sepulcher."

AD 800

St. John Damascene mentions the shroud as being one of the relics venerated by the early Christians of the time.

AD 942

The Byzantine general Curcuas captured Edessa. To avoid destruction, Archbishop Abramius of Somasata arranged that the town hand over the Mandylion. The image was then forcibly removed from the city. It was to be part of the Emperor’s huge collection of relics in the Pharos Chapel in Constantinople.

AD 944

The Mandylion arrives at the famous church of Our Lady of Blachernae. It was displayed in the throne in Blachernae.

AD 1204

Robert de Clari, a knight from Picardy, takes part in the capture of Constantinople. His reports describe the riches and relics he saw. Among them are the two pieces of the true cross, the head of the lance, two nails, a phial of blood, a tunic, and a crown. In a separate account he describes a linen cloth bearing the face of Jesus. (Later to be known as The Veronica from the legend that St. Veronica wiped the face of Jesus and the image of his face was imprinted on three parts of the linen.)

Another account talks of the Shroud in Blachernae: "And among the others there was a monastery known as Lady Saint Mary of the Blachernae, in which was kept the shroud in which Our Lord was wrapped; on every Friday this was held out, so well that it was possible to see the face of Our Lord. And neither Greek nor Frenchman knew what happened to that Shroud after the town was taken."

AD 1349

The shroud is venerated in the Cathedral of Saint-Etienne. A fire breaks out and the shroud disappears. It could have been stolen.

But gravity would have still pulled the cloth down, around the sides of his face.

But it is not distorted enough. The 3D properties show that something 3D (like a big stamp) made it, but they also show that a human body couldn't.

__________________
~~RvFvS~~
Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time.
Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species.
Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.

The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.

Imaging scientists using technology from NASA disagree with you. *shrug*

And these scientists published their work where?

__________________
~~RvFvS~~
Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time.
Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species.
Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.

The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.

I am addressing two claims here.

1) That fire altered the results of C-14 dating.

2) That modern organic contamination altered the C-14 results.

Also, how were the microscopy test skewed?

No problem.  This is the first thing I found searching the Net.  My original reference isnt a website, but you can get the point here:

"Field archeologists and historians, who regularly use radiocarbon dating, know only too well how anomalous radiocarbon dating results can be. Carbon-14 dating procedures are best used for testing organic archeological finds that have been left undisturbed and protected from the environment. It is also important, when possible, to obtain multiple samples at diverse places from an object to be tested and by statistical method determine a reasonable range of ages for the object. Yet, even with ideal conditions, carbon-14 results are sometimes highly erroneous. In one test, living snails - at least alive until just before testing - were found to be 26,000 years old. In another test, a newly killed seal was found to have died in 700 CE. Bone tools made from caribou ribs were once found to be twenty-seven thousand years old while a core sample from the innermost portion of the same caribou bone was found to be only 1,350 years old. The British Museum conducted tests on an Egyptian mummy in the Manchester Museum and found that her linen wrappings were 800 to 1000 years "newer" than her body. Other mummy samples have demonstrated this same peculiarity with cloth wrappings seemingly being newer than the bodies they contain. This could only make sense if the mummies had been rewrapped hundreds of years later. Egyptologist cannot support such supposition. "

http://www.shroudstory.com/essay/part19.htm

Also, please note:

"In the end, however, it is unlikely that anyone can prove definitively why or to what extent the tests failed. Because radiocarbon dating is not an exact science, archeologists and historians typically look for independent scientific and historical data to corroborate the age of any carbon-14 dated item. With the Shroud of Turin there is none. In fact, it is the opposite; a preponderance of evidence that argues against the carbon-14 dates."

To Bear:

The Shroud is NOT a painting, though. That much is known. The markings of the body are SCORCH marks. These markings were tested for all known pigments used as paint in the time frame of the discovery of the Shroud.

Plus...it's a negative image. In the 1300s there was no such thing as photography, and a negative image was unknown.

Yes, in C-14 dating, the sample is completely burned, and the residual carbon is tested for the proportion of C-14 to C-12. Using the known decay period of C-14, the date of the object can be estimated.

C-14 dating is based upon the concept of all living objects ingesting carbon as part of the diet. The amount of C-14 (radioactive carbon) remains constant as long as the living object is ALIVE. Once it dies, there is no more carbon ingested, and the proportion of C-12 to C-14 over time changes.

The linen of the Shroud is such an object which can be tested. Once the flax plant was harvested and the linen created from it, the ingestion of C-14 ceased. Cut a piece of that cloth, and test it for C-14, and voila, you can get a date.

HOWEVER: This piece of cloth was exposed to a fire. How hot? I personally don't know, but the wood and metal coffin the cloth was stored in caught fire, the metal started to melt, and the cloth was pulled out, with parts of it in flames. In pictures of the Shroud, you can see the diamond-shaped areas which were "mended" by the nuns. The burned portions follow the folds of how the cloth was laid in the box.

As for your reference, that's great. Scientists are going to line up on one side or the other, and counting experts isn't a valid way of "proving" anything. The fact that the fine folks at McCrone Research Institute say the image was PAINTED makes me cast a wary eye towards their "expert" opinion, because the image most certainly was NOT.

If your faith is based entirely upon whether or not this Image is a fake, then perhaps your faith is flimsy indeed. All I can offer is that *I* personally believe it is real. And even if a manufacture date is discovered somewhere on the thing, and it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the thing is a bigger ruse than Milli Vanilli, that won't affect my belief one iota.

Faith, as always, goes by what's in your heart.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Here is an animation of the distortion and what His face likely looked like: