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Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

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  #361  
Old 4th October 2002, 12:47 AM
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To ifriit:

Simple, I don't know of any studies about the composition of the shroud, and don't have enough interest to do serious research at a library.
So what good would any scientific source be that I might provide? If you are so uninterested, why are you even bothering to read this thread? Your knowledge obviously is second-third-fourth or worse -hand. You could be with the understanding the Shroud is made of goosefeathers pinned on an afghan. That's an armchair pilot in my book. Your arguments are moot.


To Lewis:

Because VOW it is property of a Church that has no interest in releasing it for intensive study.
Actually the Church has cooperated quite a bit. I think the main goal for the Church is to avoid desecrating what might possibly be a holy object. As long as the object does not detract from faith in God, the Vatican would have no argument against the Shroud. But it sure doesn't want to see it poked, prodded, defaced, mocked, stained, ruined, or destroyed. The Vatican stance on just about everything is one of conservatism.


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~VOW

Last edited by VOW; 4th October 2002 at 01:23 PM.
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  #362  
Old 4th October 2002, 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Actually, I said similiar, I never said the "same" as the Shroud.  When the C14 issue is acknowledged by the critics, then I will be glad to move onto other issues.
 

What? You won´t back up these claims, unless everyone who doesn´t agree with you on the C14 case agrees with you? Are you kidding? Please back up your claims. What images caused by the Hiroshima explosion show characteristics similar to the images on the shroud?
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  #363  
Old 4th October 2002, 05:23 AM
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Shadow imprints from Hiroshima:

http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/vir...n/sa141-2.html

http://burn.ucsd.edu/images/atomphoto/hshadow4.gif

http://burn.ucsd.edu/images/atomphoto/nshadow10.gif

Those are about the only photos existing of human shadows imprinted by an atomic blast. From a first glance I can find NO correlation to the image on the shroud of turin.
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  #364  
Old 4th October 2002, 08:28 AM
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No it wasn't. The Shroud of Turin's history only dates back to 1357, when it was first displayed in Lirey, France. (It's in the Gove paper.) What's interesting is how well the C-14 dating corresponds to its historical beginings.
Wrong. It's history goes back to the Gospels. It can be traced traveling through various lands, and the pollens on the linen from those lands proves it.

AD 33

The Gospels record the life, death, burial, and the subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ. The first historical evidence of the Shroud comes from the Gospels. So, we have eye-witnesses that place the burial cloth at the site of the tomb.

"Now after these things Joseph of Arimathea, because he was a disciple of Jesus (although for fear of the Jews a secret one), besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus. And Pilate gave permission. He came, therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there also came Nicodemus (who at first had come to Jesus by night), bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, in weight about a hundred pounds. They therefore took the body of Jesus and wrapped it in linen cloths with the spices, after the Jewish manner of preparing for burial." John 19:38-40

"Simon Peter therefore came following him, and went into the tomb, saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief which has been about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded in a place by itself." John 20:6-7

AD 33+

The Shroud was taken by Peter to Edessa.

"In the Middle East, religious relics were a source of political status and power and often had a talismanic potency, being seen as protection of the city that owned them, warding off foreign invasions and natural disasters alike. Known as palladia, every city had such a holy prophylactic. In Edessa, it was the Mandylion." (cf: Lyn Picknett & Clive Prince, Turin Shroud, 1994)

The Mandylion, literally "little handkerchief" is also known as Akheiropoietos - "not made by human hands". These refered to the image of Christ on a cloth. While in Constantinople, the image was known as "The Mandylion", a Byzantine word.

AD 525

The Image of Edessa dissapears from history until a flood destroys Edessa. While rebuilding the city, the builders discover the secret chamber on the West Gate of the city where the Shroud was hidden.

AD 640

Arculphus was a pilgrim in Jerusalem where he saw and kissed the "winding-sheet of the Lord which was placed over his head in the sepulcher."

AD 800

St. John Damascene mentions the shroud as being one of the relics venerated by the early Christians of the time.

AD 942

The Byzantine general Curcuas captured Edessa. To avoid destruction, Archbishop Abramius of Somasata arranged that the town hand over the Mandylion. The image was then forcibly removed from the city. It was to be part of the Emperor’s huge collection of relics in the Pharos Chapel in Constantinople.

AD 944

The Mandylion arrives at the famous church of Our Lady of Blachernae. It was displayed in the throne in Blachernae.

AD 1204

Robert de Clari, a knight from Picardy, takes part in the capture of Constantinople. His reports describe the riches and relics he saw. Among them are the two pieces of the true cross, the head of the lance, two nails, a phial of blood, a tunic, and a crown. In a separate account he describes a linen cloth bearing the face of Jesus. (Later to be known as The Veronica from the legend that St. Veronica wiped the face of Jesus and the image of his face was imprinted on three parts of the linen.)

Another account talks of the Shroud in Blachernae: "And among the others there was a monastery known as Lady Saint Mary of the Blachernae, in which was kept the shroud in which Our Lord was wrapped; on every Friday this was held out, so well that it was possible to see the face of Our Lord. And neither Greek nor Frenchman knew what happened to that Shroud after the town was taken."

AD 1349

The shroud is venerated in the Cathedral of Saint-Etienne. A fire breaks out and the shroud disappears. It could have been stolen.

AD 1357

The shroud is in the possession of Count Geoffroy de Charney; given to him by King Philip VI. The robber must have given it to the King (?) This was deposited in the collegiate establishment at Lirey.

AD 1389

The authenticity of The Shroud is questioned. No one knows if this is the true shroud because it was stolen in 1349 when fire broke out in the Cathedral of Saint-Etienne. It was even more difficult to establish its authenticity owing to the fact that the King of France was the receiver of the stolen good which he doubtfully confessed of doing.

AD 1452

Because of all the chaos in determining its authenticity, the shroud was made a gift by Marguerite de Charney to Anne de Lusignan, the wife of the Duke of Savoy. The History of the Shroud is clear after this event.

The Duke of Savoy built a chapel for it at the Chambery. Several expositions were held. According to a chronicler, Antony de Lalaing, several tests were performed on the shroud to prove its identity: it was boiled in oil several times and also washed. The shroud is kept in a silver box when it was not being exposed.

AD 1532

A fire broke out in the Chambery. The silver box became too hot and molten silver burned the corner of the Shroud - just missing the image. These are what we see as the triangular shapes on the Shroud. Water was used to control the fire, and this eventually left watermarks on the Shroud.

The Poor Clares of Chambery sew patches to cover the holes made by the molten silver

AD 1578

The shroud journeys with its owner to Turin, and there it stays permanently. St. Charles Borromeo vowed to go to the Chambery to venerate the Shroud. But the Duke of Savoy went to Turin instead. There it was deposited in the chapel adjoining the Cathedral of St. John.

AD 1898

Secundo Pia takes first photographs. He realizes that the shroud is a photographic negative. The world's interest on the shroud is renewed.
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  #365  
Old 4th October 2002, 08:30 AM
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Because VOW it is property of a Church that has no interest in releasing it for intensive study
Oh man, this is hilarious.

Over 1000 special tests and over 32,000 photographs have been taken of the relic. These studies make the Shroud of Turin the most intensively studied object in history.

Yep, the evil Church has been hiding it from scientific testing alright! :rolleyes:

I no longer feel bad when Lewis called me a liar.  This post proves he has little to no credibility!
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  #366  
Old 4th October 2002, 08:41 AM
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Souljah, the Mandylion is not the Shroud of Turin.
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  #367  
Old 4th October 2002, 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by armageddonman
Souljah, the Mandylion is not the Shroud of Turin.
Yeah it is, it is another name for it.  The Shroud was folded so that the only thing showing was the face...which was known as the Mandylion.
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  #368  
Old 4th October 2002, 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Yeah it is, it is another name for it.  The Shroud was folded so that the only thing showing was the face...which was known as the Mandylion.
 

How do you know that?
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Old 4th October 2002, 01:27 PM
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To Armageddonman:

The Mandylion is considered to be the Shroud, folded, because of the notoriety of Crucifixion. The believers wanted to be able to discuss Christ with non-believers without the crucifixion being a point of dissension.

The timeline of the Mandylion coincides with the timeline of the Shroud. The features of the Mandylion coincide with the features of the Shroud. At no time were both artifacts present.


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  #370  
Old 4th October 2002, 01:43 PM
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VOW: So what good would any scientific source be that I might provide?
Scientific sources are easily verified.  I might read something, but I don't have time to do proper research.

VOW: If you are so uninterested, why are you even bothering to read this thread?
I'm fascinated by the lengths Christians will go to to prove something is real while simultaneously providing no proof at all.

VOW: Your knowledge obviously is second-third-fourth or worse -hand. You could be with the understanding the Shroud is made of goosefeathers pinned on an afghan. That's an armchair pilot in my book. Your arguments are moot.
You'll note that I've made no arguments one way or the other about the Shroud.  I've presented what I assume to be a reasonable assumptions about it, but I haven't argued it.

Instead, if you'd actually read anything I said, my arguments have been pointing out that you have no verifiable proof.  That last bit could just as easily be about you considering you've not even bothered presenting anything like scientific evidence, but simply conjecture and hypothesis.  By your own arguments, your arguments are just as moot as mine, Ms. Pot.
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