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Duh. The book has a bibliography. I'm at work now, I can't put my hands on the book.
Oh, hey, I have another flaw in your rationale. According to dyed-in-the-wool Protestants, the Catholic Church kept the Bible locked up and away from the people until Martin Luther came along in the 16th century. So your anonymous genius would have had to have access to an "illegal" (gasp!) Bible.
Originally posted by VOW Duh. The book has a bibliography. I'm at work now, I can't put my hands on the book.
Well, please share the bibliography with us when you get home.
Oh, hey, I have another flaw in your rationale. According to dyed-in-the-wool Protestants, the Catholic Church kept the Bible locked up and away from the people until Martin Luther came along in the 16th century. So your anonymous genius would have had to have access to an "illegal" (gasp!) Bible.
Like I said before, the forger was probably a monk. Last time I checked, the church didn't keep the bible and other books away from monks.
__________________ ~~RvFvS~~ Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time. Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species. Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.
The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.
Like I said before, the forger was probably a monk.
Nice theory. But why would the Shroud not be in possession of the Vatican, then? The Vatican would be the only source of all the necessities that I outlined above. This monk is going to need a platinum Visa, unrestricted travel, a knowledge of archaeology, foresight of photography AND forensics, plus genius artistic talent.
The genius artists were generally put to work making statues, painting ceilings, stuff like that.
I doubt seriously that a single order or monastery would have the monetary resources to finance such an endeavor on its own. And unfortunately, politics loved to rear its ugly head in the upper echelons of Church, so it would be difficult to support and supply this anonymous genius without some kind of evidence left behind. You'd probably need a rich secular sponsor....and those guys generally wanted some recognition. Sale of indulgences and all that.
Originally posted by VOW Nice theory. But why would the Shroud not be in possession of the Vatican, then? The Vatican would be the only source of all the necessities that I outlined above. This monk is going to need a platinum Visa, unrestricted travel, a knowledge of archaeology, foresight of photography AND forensics, plus genius artistic talent.
Who said it was a catholic monk? Furthermore, you have yet to show that those 14 things are true about the shroud.
I doubt seriously that a single order or monastery would have the monetary resources to finance such an endeavor on its own.
Who said it would be expensive?
__________________ ~~RvFvS~~ Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time. Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species. Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.
The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.
You got another type of monk in mind, besides Catholic? At that time, the Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian Church, and in possession of Scripture.
Why do I say expensive? You need the supplies, the travel, the facilities, the tools, the TIME, and the support. All of that stuff doesn't appear out of thin air. You've got this guy building some sort of human model, using 1st century Palestine fabric embedded with 1st century Palestine pollen, he's got 1st century Roman coins, he's got a copy of Scripture, at least the Gospels (and that alone is horrendously expensive!), he's got a roof over his head, and food in his belly.
Here's a partial list of the 14 points Souljah listed:
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
I copied these, because they are all OBSERVATIONS of the Shroud itself. I don't know what kind of PROOF you are demanding, other than actually handling the Shroud and seeing for yourself these characterisitics.
Is there a published scientific journal documenting these observations of the Shroud? I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. I don't base my belief in God, or in His Son upon the Shroud. It's like the icing on the cake.
I don't believe the veracity of the Shroud is going to be the one piece of evidence YOU need to believe in the Christian faith. In fact, I'd wager that even if everything was substantiated by the finest scholastic and scientific means possible, you'd still find a way to deny the possibility of this being the burial Shroud of the Son of God.
personally i'd love it if the shroud was real and they could PCR up some divine DNA - it would make my day to see jesus DNA with LINE and ALU elements and pseudogenes.
__________________ 'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.'
(Aldous Huxley)
Go ahead and let me have it. I've even provided the wet noodle for the proverbial 20 lashes. I'm home, and I looked for my book, and I can't find the blasted thing. I probably loaned it to someone.
Rag away, Hon. I've already got a migraine, so more abuse won't bother me a bit.
Originally posted by RufusAtticus "You are the Dancing Queen, young and sweet, only seventeen
Dancing Queen, feel the beat from the tambourine
You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life
See that girl, watch that scene, dig in the Dancing Queen."
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