As an ex calvanist I know that I believed in the sovereignty of God and that God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants to whomever he wants...but this is not true.
God cannot go against his word for one thing...if God says that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...can God then change his mind...I am not saving anyone today...or I never meant for you to be saved... No! God does what he said he would do in his word and so God's sovereignty is limited to what God said he would do...
I also believed that Jesus only dies for the elect but this is also not true...God gave his one and only son for the "whosever believes"...there are many other things but these are the main ones...God bless, Mike.
Excellent post Mike. It's always great hearing from someone who actually embraced the system at one time and saw its flaws.
Calvinism (or Augustinianism or Reformed Christianity - all depends on who you talk to) centers every thing on their version of God's sovereignty. The worst part is that none of the church fathers accepted this type of teaching before Augustine had his famous debate with Pelagius. All because Pelagius went over board on the "Free-Will" doctrine, Augustine decided to embrace the opposite extreme. Luther would do the same in his debate with ERasmus by appealing to Augustine. John Calvin heavily relied on Augustine's teachings when he wrote his "Institutes." Anyone who reads them will see Augustine appealed to them quite a bit. I was shocked when I read some of Calvin's statements.
Many of our Calvinist brethren would lead us to believe that these doctrines were accepted by all until Arminus opposed them about 50 years later. However, Augustine had a number of equal clergy dispute him and so did Calvin some centuries later. Unfortunately, people like Augustine and Calvin used the the power of the government (both of them ironically had power. Many referred to Calvin as the pope of Geneva) to enforce comformity to their doctrinal position.
The most unfortunate thing is that many Christians sort of embrace the Calvinistic "sovereignty of God" doctrine in some form or another. The oft heard statement, "God is in control" can be heard from amny Christians. Anyone who opposes such a statement is looked at as blasphemous. A person can get raped but someone will say, "God is in control." How is that? Was he controlling the rapists? We truly have to be careful when we make religious sounding statements like that.
God has all power and He makes promises, but gives His children (and all men) autonomy. We decide to follow God or to rebel. Thankfully, this is not just some kind of illusion that God has worked behind the scenes as the sovereignty doctrine would imply.
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
Why are people Calvinist?
What would you say, from a word of faith perspective, are the underlying motivations of a person to believe the calvinistic doctrine. I am currently dealing with this issue and I believe I have some of the answers to why.
1. Innacurate understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign.
An answer without evidence? Zzzzzzzz
2. Lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
An answer without evidence? Zzzzzzzz
These are the 2 main underlying reasons,
Which I could say back to you. For a "pastor" your not very good.
namely lack of understanding of the authority of the believer.
I believe it is equally important to know why a person believes what they believe as it is to know what they believe. Its getting to the root of the issue.
duh.
The purpose of this post, well first I want to know your thoughts.
Look up the word predestination in the Bible and get over what it means. Look up Galatians and read the whole thing, how in the ___ can you miss an entire chapter on how you can't obey God's law to get saved, and how in the ___ can you miss the many verses on God WORKING IN US, CONTROLLING US, CHANGING US, HIS WILL BEING DONE, and on and on, I mean damn, must be blind. You see the root of your issue and others like you, is that you want to take credit for your salvation, it makes you angry (for no logical reason) to face a God who controls the universe. So you can't understand how you are responsible for your sins when God controls everything? Get over it! Were not God, just obey him, and don't wine, is that hard? Read romans 8 and 9, God is sovereign over who gets saved, not us, the end, THE END.
Secondly, I believe, through others input, can educate many to know how to approach those who are calvinists or influenced by them.
You say hi, are you one of those calvanist people who are infected with the God is sovereign disease, ew you mean you actually believe God has a right to control what he creates? Gross man!
Maybe if you manifested some of the fruit of the spirit and showed a little more spiritual maturity we might care about what you have to say. Otherwise...
Maybe if you manifested some of the fruit of the spirit and showed a little more spiritual maturity we might care about what you have to say. Otherwise...
Yep. You can add that guy's post to the many reasons why I could never embrace Calvinism. The main reason, of course, is that nearly all Calvinist concepts are lacking any real Scriptural support. They do a lot of "prooftexting" and re-interpretting but when their theology is examined in the context of God's full revelation, it definitely comes up short.
But from my internet discussions with a number of the "Reformed" people, the fruit is also lacking. The intellectualism inherent within this theology seems to give its adherents an air of arrogance. And look at that post. This Calvinist is using curse words. So much for "meekness". We should all be thanking him for showing us why we should reject the Calvinist system of theology.
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
By the way, what is a "Reformed" person, and what is the intellectualism within that theology?
Some who embrace Calvinist/Augustinian concepts prefer not to be identified as "Calvinists." Since many of these same concepts were also taught by St. Augustine, Zwingli and Martin Luther, and is systematized in the Westminster Confession, they do not want to be called Calvinists. Since Calvinist theology was predominant during the reformation period (when Luther and others were moving away from Catholicism and attempting to "reform" the church) then those who embrace the system prefer to be identified as "Reformed".
If you ever see or hear the phrase "Reformed Theology" just think of Calvinism and you'll understand.
The whole TULIP system is based on, not REVELATION of God's Word, but on people like Calvin who intellectually put together a system of theology based primarily from the writings of Augustine (who many claim was the church's first true theologian). He then "prooftexted" (which means to come up with a belief and then find Scripture that will support that belief. It is opposite from just reading the Bible to receive what God has to say. The former makes God say what you want Him to say). You will find his compendium of beliefs in several volumes of a work titled "The Institutes of the Christian Religion."
Anyone who expressed any disagreement with Calvin and who was within his governmental powers paid a heavy price for their disagreement (just like Augustine before him). There were many prisoned, tortured, and some even put to death. One man who opposed him, Michael Servetus, was burned very slowly at the stake.
This same spirit of persecution seems to exist in many of the followers of Calvin to this very day.
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
Hi VW,
How have you been?
I read that Calvin had a guy put to death for his heresies (the underlying motive probably more because he was a threat to his own purposes). I first read about some of this in Lairdon's book of Reformers. What is your understanding on this. If you have a pre written post on this will do fine. The thought that came to my mind, is the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. It is the majority of Calvinists that are assassinating the character & validity of the WOFer's.
Thanks,
Pastor J
Hi VW,
How have you been?
I read that Calvin had a guy put to death for his heresies (the underlying motive probably more because he was a threat to his own purposes). I first read about some of this in Lairdon's book of Reformers. What is your understanding on this. If you have a pre written post on this will do fine. The thought that came to my mind, is the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. It is the majority of Calvinists that are assassinating the character & validity of the WOFer's.
Thanks,
Pastor J
PastorJ
I have Liairdon's first book but not the one on the reformers, at least not yet. I may get it soon.
There are a number of web sites that can give you info on Michael Servetus, who is the most famous Christian executed under Calvin's regime, though he was not the only one. However, I will give you a link to web page that gives some brief history on it:
The above link shares my own personal grievances with Calvin's heinous act. Calvin was a murderer and 1 John 3:15 tells us that no murderer has eternal life in him. Today's Calvinists attempt to excuse Calvin's actions by appealing to the times that he lived in, but that is just BALONEY. If he had the life of God abiding in him and was walking in that life then he would NEVER had done what he did, regardless of the times. However, Calvin's forefather, Augustine, persecuted the "Donatists" because they also broke away from his established religion.
Calvinists have been persecuting those opposed to them ever since. The Remonstrants (who followed Arminius' teachings that oposed Calvinism) were severely persecuted by the Calvinists some many years after the death of Calvin (and he suffered a very horrible death by the way).
People like Hank Hanegraaff (who embraces many of the Calvinistic concepts) reminds me of people like Calvin. If it were not for the laws that we have today, I am sure that Word-Faithers would have been hunted down and burned for our beliefs. Unfortunately, they only have the power of their books and the Evangelical market, which has all proven to be ineffective in stopping the Faith MOvement.
But let me conclude by saying that there are some Arminians who have written material against us too.
__________________ Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture.
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