| Soteriology The forum to discuss the theological doctrine of salvation. |  | | 
19th September 2005, 11:15 AM
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Reps: 866,456,371,216,119 (power: 866,456,371,233) | | The case of Judas carefully studied is a contradiction of all anti-Calvinst thought .
Wrong, the case of Judas carefully studied is a contradiction of all Calvinist thought.
You see folks, anyone can post up assertions, we is necessary is to lay out the case as I have done. God chose Judas for His purpose, and this is no mystery. God altered the life of Judas teaching exhaustive determinism is a mistaken view of scripture.
Judas was depraved. Duh, everyone in Adam is depraved. So here the sophistry is to cite something obviously true and suggest this leads one to the following conclusions which of course is the fallacy.
Did Jesus call Judas a devil? Perhaps He did, but no reference is provided. How can you check to see if the assertion is true without a reference? Is it a reference to John 13:2? No, Jesus says nothing, all that is said is that the devil has put into Judas's heart to betray Jesus. Was Jesus speaking to Judas or the Devil in John 13:27?
In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as the son of perdition, is this what is being referred to? I do not know. How about John 6:70? Yes, that is it, but why not provide the reference, why cause us to have to search, except to deny knowledge of context.
In John 6:70 the idea is that Jesus chose Judas to betray Him.
What did Jesus sacrifice do for Judas? Well I think Judas did not come to Jesus, it was not allowed by the Father so Judas did not receive the reconcilation. Does this suggest in the slightest that the idea that reconciliation is available to mankind in general is invalid? Nope. To draw that conclusion would be an irrational leap in logic.
Could Judas have resisted the influence God exerted to bring out His foretold events? Nope, no plan of God can be thwarted, Job 42:2.
And now we arrive, finally at the last bogus point, that because God chose Judas to fufill scripture, that means God does not ever provide an opportunity to choose life. But this is bogus, see Dueteronomy 30:11-18. Judas was an exception to the general rule where God says Here I am, Here I am, (Isaiah 65:1) and wants all men to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4. | 
19th September 2005, 03:19 PM
|  | Jacob the twister.....

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Reps: 4,443,437,918,532,874,752 (power: 4,443,437,918,532,942) | | van thinks that by arguing for exceptions (he likes to get around his problems that way) that they will go away ......... truth be known van uses his techniques selectively , for it will not work to use it as a method of understanding scripture . Say God is Love , then look for exceptions , you get the drift! Say God is Holy , then look for exceptions , you get the drift! Truth is Judas was destined to betray Christ as Van admits , then he argues that God doesn't really control all things , which the scriptures affirm as i have shown. All things do work together for good (for those who love the Lord) notice it is "all things" no exceptions! so van is once again mistaken. All you have to do is ask who is ruling all events in heaven and on earth right now and see what scripture says , it is The Lord , not fate not chance , and certainly not Satan.
Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? That God reigns supreme in Heaven is generally conceded; that He does so over this world, is almost universally denied-if not directly, then indirectly. More and more are men in their philosophizing and theorizing relegating God to the background. Take the material realm. Not only is it denied that God created everything by personal and direct action, but few believe that He has any immediate concern in regulating the works of His own hands. Everything is supposed to be ordered according to the (impersonal and abstract) "laws of Nature." Thus is the Creator banished from His own creation. Therefore we need not be surprised that men, in their degrading conceptions, exclude Him from the realm of human affairs. Throughout Christendom, with an almost negligible exception, the theory is held that man is "a free agent," and therefore, lord of his fortunes and the determiner of his destiny. That Satan is to be blamed for much of the evil which is in the world is freely affirmed by those who, though having so much to say about "the responsibility of man," often deny their own responsibility, by attributing to the Devil what, in fact, proceeds from their own evil hearts (Mark 7:21-23).
But who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? Attempt to take a serious and comprehensive view of the world. What a scene of confusion and chaos confronts us on every side! Sin is rampant; lawlessness abounds; evil men and seducers are waxing "worse and worse" (2 Tim. 3:13). Today, everything appears to be out of joint. Thrones are creaking and tottering, ancient dynasties are being overturned, democracies are revolting, civilization is a demonstrated failure; half of Christendom was but recently locked-together in a death grapple; and now that the titantic conflict is over, instead of the world having been made "safe for democracy," we have discovered that democracy is very unsafe for the world. Unrest, discontent, and lawlessness are rife everywhere, and none can say how soon another great war will be set in motion. Statesmen are perplexed and staggered. Men's hearts are "failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth" (Luke 21:26). Do these things look as though God had full control?
But let us confine our attention to the religious realm. After nineteen centuries of Gospel preaching, Christ is still "despised and rejected of men." Worse still, He (the Christ of Scripture) is proclaimed and magnified by very few. In the majority of modern pulpits He is dishonored and disowned. Despite frantic efforts to attract the crowds, the majority of the churches are being emptied rather than filled. And what of the great masses of non-church goers? In the light of Scripture we are compelled to believe that the "many" are on the Broad Road that leadeth to destruction, and that only "few" are on the Narrow Way that leadeth unto life. Many are declaring that Christianity is a failure, and despair is settling on many faces. Not a few of the Lord's own people are bewildered, and their faith is being severely tried. And what of God? Does He see and hear? Is He impotent or indifferent? A number of those who are regarded as leaders of Christian-thought told us that God could not help the coming of the late awful War, and that He was unable to bring about its termination. It was said, and said openly, that conditions were beyond God's control. Do these things look as though God were ruling the world?
Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? What impression is made upon the minds of those men of the world who, occasionally, attend a Gospel service? What are the conceptions formed by those who hear even those preachers who are counted as "orthodox?" Is it not that a disappointed God is the One whom Christians believe in? From what is heard from the average evangelist today, is not any serious hearer obliged to conclude that he professes to represent a God who is filled with benevolent intentions, yet unable to carry them out; that He is earnestly desirous of blessing men, but that they will not let Him? Then, must not the average hearer draw the inference that the Devil has gained the upper hand, and that God is to be pitied rather than blamed?
But does not everything seem to show that the Devil has far more to do with the affairs of earth than God has? Ah, it all depends upon whether we are walking by faith, or walking by sight. Are your thoughts, my reader, concerning this world and God's relation to it, based upon what you see? Face this question seriously and honestly. And if you are a Christian you will, most probably, have cause to bow your head with shame and sorrow, and to acknowledge that it is so. Alas, in reality, we walk very little "by faith." But what does "walking by faith" signify? It means that our thoughts are formed, our actions regulated, our lives molded by the Holy Scriptures, for, "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17). It is from the Word of Truth, and that alone, that we can learn what is God's relation to this world.
Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God or the Devil? What saith the Scriptures? Ere we consider the direct reply to this query, let it be said that the Scriptures predicted just what we now see and hear. The prophecy of Jude is in course of fulfillment. It would lead us too far astray from our present inquiry to fully amplify this assertion, but what we have particularly in mind is a sentence in verse 8-"Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities." Yes, they "speak evil" of the Supreme Dignity, the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords." Ours is peculiarly an age of irreverence, and as the consequence, the spirit of lawlessness, which brooks no restraint and which is desirous of casting off everything which interferes with the free course of self-will, is rapidly engulfing the earth like some giant tidal wave. The members of the rising generation are the most flagrant offenders, and in the decay and disappearing of parental authority we have the certain precursor of the abolition of civic authority. Therefore, in view of the growing disrespect for human law and the refusal to "render honor to whom honor is due," we need not be surprised that the recognition of the majesty, the authority, the Sovereignty of the Almighty law-giver should recede more and more into the background, and the masses have less and less patience with those who insist upon them. And conditions will not improve; instead, the more sure Word of Prophecy makes known to us that they will grow worse and worse. Nor do we expect to be able to stem the tide-it has already risen much too high for that. All we can now hope to do is warn our fellow-saints against the spirit of the age, and thus seek to counteract its baneful influence upon them.
Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? What saith the Scriptures? If we believe their plain and positive declarations, no room is left for uncertainty. They affirm, again and again, that God is on the throne of the universe; that the sceptre is in His hands; that He is directing all things "after the counsel of His own will." They affirm, not only that God created all things, but also that God is ruling and reigning over all the works of His hands. They affirm that God is the "Almighty," that His will is irreversible, that He is absolute Sovereign in every realm of all His vast dominions. And surely it must be so. Only two alternatives are possible: God must either rule, or be ruled; sway, or be swayed; accomplish His own will, or be thwarted by His creatures. Accepting the fact that He is the "Most High," the only Potentate and King of kings, vested with perfect wisdom and illimitable power, and the conclusion is irresistible that He must be God in fact as well as in name. http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/pink_sov_intro.html Men so despise the doctrines of Grace that no matter what is placed before them their predjudice will always win out , save God does a work of Grace in their hearts . Judas was chosen for an Office , he was not chosen for eternal life. And God used this clay vessel for a job suited to the character of this person. Even as he uses lying spirits to lie to men , God Himself cannot lie , so He uses what is available to Him , for a purpose. Was Judas exonerated because God used him ? No! Judas acted freely , under no compulsion , he acted as though there were no decree concerning him , God acted secretly and God's motives were pure , to have Jesus handed over by a "close friend" in accordance with prophecy. I notice that if Van sees someone has not quoted a scripture reference he presumes foul play , is that the way of love , to be accusing , there may be many reasons why someone doesn't quote a reference , but to think the worst of someone is not Christlike at all. I noticed he did this yesterday too , I quoted from Billy Graham , and because i FORGOT TO LINK THE REF , A SIMPLE OVERSIGHT , Van starts jumping to assumptions , and giving out the idea that fellow Christians are lying and acting deceitfully ......... I ask the reader , is this the Spirit of Love to act in a condemning manner towrds brethren with absolutely no proof ....... why is it easy to shout ''sophistry'' at Christians ? Have we forgotten "what ever you did to the least of these my brethren , Ye did unto me " I don't understand ?
__________________ "Of course no one can resist God's Will," 3rdHeaven "... none can resist God's will, " LetsObeyChrist; 15th January 2012 at 02:38 AM.
" He does not will the salvation of all men," gmm4j To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Last edited by cygnusx1; 19th September 2005 at 03:36 PM.
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19th September 2005, 06:25 PM
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Reps: 866,456,371,216,119 (power: 866,456,371,233) | | Truth is Judas was destined to betray Christ as Van admits , then he argues that God doesn't really control all things , which the scriptures affirm as i have shown.
To the contrary, I have shown that God allows us a purview of autonomous activity within the bounds of His will. See Deuteronomy 30:11-18. Exhaustive Determinism has been shown to not mesh with scriptures because God intervenes to alter the activities of men. If it was being controlled, no intervention would be necessary, men would just do as God foreordains. Intervention demonstrates Exhaustive Determinism is a fiction, a sort of Sci Fi Divine Matrix.
The idea behind all things work together for good for those who love the Lord is that if you are saved, you have it made. No matter what happens, good or bad, the result is at the end of the day, who get the riches of His glory. Folks, read the passage if you can find it.
God is ruling everything, including establishing our purview for autonomous activity. God created it for His purpose, so that we would bring Him glory. The view of life as an illusion that Cygnusx1 offers, does not mesh with scripture exhorting folks to believe, of God saying Here I am, Here I am, folks would just believe. Therefore Exhaustive Determinism is a mistaken view of scripture. The Church age, where God is bringing everything under His control, while He is being patient, is taught by scripture.
Exhaustive determinism is a silly concept and in no way reflects the reality presented in the bible. Men so despise the doctrines of Grace that no matter what is placed before them their predjudice will always win out , save God does a work of Grace in their hearts .
Does ad homenim ring a bell? The TULIP is not wrong, those that don't get it are non-elect. What twaddle! Folks scripture says we are check what folks say and see if it is true. I checked, and it was not true. Was Judas exonerated because God used him ?
No! Judas acted freely , under no compulsion , he acted as though there were no decree concerning him , God acted secretly and God's motives were pure , to have Jesus handed over by a "close friend" in accordance with prophecy.
These assertions of conjecture are without merit. We do not know the degree, if any, that God cut Judas some slack for being used to fulfill prophecy. To assert none is twaddle. Judas had a corrupted heart, but God used it, He allowed Satan to enter Judas, and cause Judas to "do quickly" the betrayal. God did not act in secret, Jesus told his disciples who would betray him. Of course God's motives were pure, God is God, and whatever God does, it is perfect. We are in no way supposed to judge God.
Pay no attention to Cygnusx1 questioning my behavior, I am just making a effort as a brother to turn him back to the truth in love. | 
20th September 2005, 06:48 AM
|  | Jacob the twister.....

| | Join Date: 12th April 2004 Location: UK Northampton
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Reps: 4,443,437,918,532,874,752 (power: 4,443,437,918,532,942) | | [quote=Van][/color][/size][/font] To the contrary, I have shown that God allows us a purview of autonomous activity within the bounds of His will. Nonsense Van , God's sovereignty is over all , you cannot have partial Sovereignty .Even the Lot cast in the lap a seemingly random occurence is controlled by God.You have invented a god after your own understanding.Shame on you. See Deuteronomy 30:11-18. Exhaustive Determinism has been shown to not mesh with scriptures because God intervenes to alter the activities of men. If it was being controlled, no intervention would be necessary, men would just do as God foreordains. Intervention demonstrates Exhaustive Determinism is a fiction, a sort of Sci Fi Divine Matrix. Your conclusion is fallacious , God's intervention is always a PART of His Sovereign Plan .God doesn't second guess what men will do , He knew all along. The idea behind all things work together for good for those who love the Lord is that if you are saved, you have it made. No matter what happens, good or bad, the result is at the end of the day, who get the riches of His glory. Folks, read the passage if you can find it.  wow ! this is the worst thing I think I have ever read from you , talk about reductionism .All things do work together for good can only be true IF God has control over all things , which the scripture affims , see also Eph 1:11 God is ruling everything, including establishing our purview for autonomous activity. What are you on about Van ? God is ruling everything but He doesn't control everything , are you confused ? God created it for His purpose, so that we would bring Him glory. The view of life as an illusion that Cygnusx1 offers, does not mesh with scripture exhorting folks to believe, of God saying Here I am, Here I am, folks would just believe. False , the difference between exaustive determinism and hard determinism is secondary causes are ignored in the latter , and God's Sovereignty is over all events as in the former. Therefore Exhaustive Determinism is a mistaken view of scripture. False , every hair on everyones head is numbered , every sparrow that falls comes under God's Sovereignty , and Kings hearts are in the hand of the Lord He turns them any way He will , The Lot is cast in the lap but the descision is wholly of the Lord, etc etc etc ............ God's Soverignty has no bounds. The Church age, where God is bringing everything under His control, while He is being patient, is taught by scripture.
Exhaustive determinism is a silly concept and in no way reflects the reality presented in the bible. why is something you niether understand nor believe silly ? Why continue to use an inflammatory word ? First , would you be offended if people who differed (as they do) used that word constantly in every thread? [/color][/size][/font]
Does ad homenim ring a bell? yes , see above! The TULIP is not wrong, those that don't get it are non-elect. What twaddle! If you think that is what I said , then no wonder you are having problems .... try reading exactly what I said ........... you have maligned me. Folks scripture says we are check what folks say and see if it is true. I checked, and it was not true.
[/color][/font][/size] see above. These assertions of conjecture are without merit. We do not know the degree, if any, that God cut Judas some slack for being used to fulfill prophecy. what are you on about Van ? do you expect to be living next door to Judas when you die ? To assert none is twaddle.
? Judas had a corrupted heart, but God used it, He allowed Satan to enter Judas, and cause Judas to "do quickly" the betrayal. yes Van I mentioned these facts. God did not act in secret, Jesus told his disciples who would betray him. Van , again you are mistaken , the only person that knew who was going to betray Jesus was Jesus , and ONE disciple (John) and that one disciple wasn't even told until the last supper , by the dipping of bread.The rest were ignorant of which one it was. Of course God's motives were pure, God is God, and whatever God does, it is perfect. We are in no way supposed to judge God. That goes without saying .............. Pay no attention to Cygnusx1 questioning my behavior, I am just making a effort as a brother to turn him back to the truth in love. Yes , DO pay close attention to behaviour here folks , I see much talk and little of Christ and His Spirit. Those who think they can speak , remember you I and anyone else will give an account for every word uttered. I notice that if Van sees someone has not quoted a scripture reference he presumes foul play , is that the way of love , to be accusing , there may be many reasons why someone doesn't quote a reference , but to think the worst of someone is not Christlike at all.
I noticed he did this yesterday too , I quoted from Billy Graham , and because i FORGOT TO LINK THE REF , A SIMPLE OVERSIGHT , Van starts jumping to assumptions , and giving out the idea that fellow Christians are lying and acting deceitfully ......... I ask the reader , is this the Spirit of Love to act in a condemning manner towards brethren with absolutely no proof ....... why is it easy to shout ''sophistry'' at Christians ? Have we forgotten "what ever you did to the least of these my brethren , Ye did unto me " I don't understand ?
__________________ "Of course no one can resist God's Will," 3rdHeaven "... none can resist God's will, " LetsObeyChrist; 15th January 2012 at 02:38 AM.
" He does not will the salvation of all men," gmm4j To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Last edited by cygnusx1; 20th September 2005 at 07:02 AM.
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20th September 2005, 09:15 AM
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Reps: 866,456,371,216,119 (power: 866,456,371,233) | | The doctrines of the TULIP deny the sovereignty of God, for God cannot create a purview where our autonomous activities are allowed within the limits of God's will. God can create what He purposes to create, and He can create within His soverign control, free choice zones.
The doctrines of the TULIP teach that God intervenes to create the illusion of needing to alter the course of men; rather than cause the outcome to come out according to his will, he caused it to come out different than his will, and then intervened so that it would come out according to his will. Hangs together nicely don't you think. Exhaustive determinism has been show to not mesh with scripture, and no amount of silly argument will alter that fact. All things do work together for good can only be true IF God has control over all things
This assertion is a fallacy. All God needs to control is the good outcome and voila, all the stuff that happened before worked out for good. Read the passage folks, the point is encouragement during our suffering.
Again the false premise that God cannot create a purview of autonomous activity within the limits of His will, which says God is not all powerful and cannot accomplish His purpose of allowing us to make a choice between life and death (Deut. 30:11-18). Such a view does not mesh with scripture and denies that God is all powerful. Originally Posted by Van The view of life as an illusion that Cygnusx1 offers, does not mesh with scripture exhorting folks to believe, of God saying Here I am, Here I am, folks would just believe.
The rebuttal is the ol name change routine, well scripture may not mesh with exhaustive determinism but it does mesh with hard determinism which allows secondary causes. No, scripture teaches that we exercise autonomous choices within the purview created by God according to His purpose of creation. We are exhorted to believe, God says Here I am, Here I am, and desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now for the third time, the same argument is made, since God created and sustains creation, and knows everything to the smallest detail that occurs within creation, God cannot create a purview where we exercise autonomous activity. God is not all powerful. Folks, our God is all powerful and no plan, including a plan for autonomous choices (Deut 30:11-18) can be thwarted. Pay no attention to folks who put God on their Procrustean bed.
The Church age, where God is bringing everything under His control, while He is being patient, is taught by scripture. Exhaustive determinism is an unbiblical concept and in no way reflects the reality presented in the bible . And finally note the gratuitous ad homenim at the end. Pay no attention to the constant efforts to demonise me, all the efforts show is an inability to defend the doctrines of the TULIP, so they shoot the messenger. | 
20th September 2005, 09:21 AM
|  | Jacob the twister.....

| | Join Date: 12th April 2004 Location: UK Northampton
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Reps: 4,443,437,918,532,874,752 (power: 4,443,437,918,532,942) | | in summary ^ Tulip is wrong because I say it is , and poor me , I am being victimised .....
__________________ "Of course no one can resist God's Will," 3rdHeaven "... none can resist God's will, " LetsObeyChrist; 15th January 2012 at 02:38 AM.
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20th September 2005, 09:39 AM
|  | Legend 61  | | Join Date: 23rd February 2003 Location: Home, except when I'm not....
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Reps: 355,427,370,005,019,264 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by cygnusx1 in summary ^ Tulip is wrong because I say it is , and poor me , I am being victimised ..... 
Not to mention that he totally mis-read your detail of the difference between exhaustive determinism and hard determinism, and actually stated it backwards.
To me, that is proof that he is knee-jerk reacting to the Calvinists who are exposing his methods and sophistry in these forums. He runs to the "poor little me" defense when he's run out of things to say.
He will avoid any substantive discussion and examination of the Doctrines of Grace, by any means necessary, and will not allow them to be discussed unless he can control and set the parameters of the discussion. That is the mark of a man who is running scared. | 
20th September 2005, 11:05 AM
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Reps: 866,456,371,216,119 (power: 866,456,371,233) | | | Exhaust Folks the prior two posts contained nothing but ad homenims, shooting at the messenger, I count it all joy, perhaps in part because they are shooting blanks.
Exhaustive Determinism and Hard Determinism are the same thing and the other view of deteminism is soft determinism. Exhaustive determinism says that if we know the condition at any point in time, then be can by cause and effect reasoning, project the entire trajectory of the universe till the end of time. In other words, Hard Determinism. Determinism (Hard): The doctrine that all of our actions in life are determined by prior events, that every action has a cause, and that, therefore, no action is free. Determinism (Soft): The doctrine that all of our actions in life are determined by prior events, that every action has a cause, but that not all of actions are therefore unfree. Soft determinists believe that freedom is compatible with complete causation, and therefore with determinism. (Also known as Compatibilism.)
But none of these views, from philosophy, reflect the reality presented in the Bible. The Bible teaches as the twig is bent, so grows the tree. Our past experience influences our decisions. Therefore the Bible teaches we are to train up our child in the way they should go.
Last edited by Van; 20th September 2005 at 11:30 AM.
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20th September 2005, 11:33 AM
|  | Jacob the twister.....

| | Join Date: 12th April 2004 Location: UK Northampton
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Reps: 4,443,437,918,532,874,752 (power: 4,443,437,918,532,942) | | Originally Posted by nobdysfool Not to mention that he totally mis-read your detail of the difference between exhaustive determinism and hard determinism, and actually stated it backwards.
To me, that is proof that he is knee-jerk reacting to the Calvinists who are exposing his methods and sophistry in these forums. He runs to the "poor little me" defense when he's run out of things to say.
He will avoid any substantive discussion and examination of the Doctrines of Grace, by any means necessary, and will not allow them to be discussed unless he can control and set the parameters of the discussion. That is the mark of a man who is running scared.  How right you are NBF as can clearly be seen from his post above ........... and then he says I count it all joy .......... I am sure he does enjoy dissing brothers. Van thinks God's Sovereignty is limited and that God only determines some things , but where do we find this strange part-time Sovereignty of God in Scripture? where are we told that man is autonomous in scripture ? And where are we told that man's freedom is ever outside of God's Providence and wise decree ? we are not told it ............ it seems Van is the one firing blanks Folks notice Van makes many assertions , none have been voachsafed by God's Word , they are merely assertions. Scripture tells us clearly that for all who love The Lord everything works together for good . Now , because everything does work together for good then there must be a reason for that fact , and man's so called autonomy with God's part time Sovereignty just doesn't cut it ....... ie , All things work together for good because men are usually free to do what God has not planned.......... see , it doesn't make one atom of sense. But That God is in FULL control and not just occassionaly using limited Sovereignty , but real and full Sovereign , even Satan asks for permission to do his corrupt work (so much for autonomy) and because God is in full control of every single event that has occured or ever will occur makes perfect sense of the text ''all things work together for good''. This is not merely a deduction folks , Ephesians 1:11 states clearly ...
''In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will " so does God work all things after the counsel of his will? Yes or no?
__________________ "Of course no one can resist God's Will," 3rdHeaven "... none can resist God's will, " LetsObeyChrist; 15th January 2012 at 02:38 AM.
" He does not will the salvation of all men," gmm4j To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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20th September 2005, 12:16 PM
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Reps: 9,191,318,012,851,200 (power: 0) | | | The Real Reason Judas Betrayed Jesus... Was because Judas was sinful and was interested in personal gain (whether it be monetary, political, etc.). Was Judas inescapably predestined to betray Jesus? Of course not. Like everyone else, Judas made choices which led to his ultimate betrayal. As the gospel accounts were written many years after the fact, it would not be surprising to see that the writers would Judas' betrayal as God-ordained as it ultimately resulted in good (the salvation of the world), even as generations before various writers applied the same logic to Pharoah. Does this mean, however, that the biblical writers are attempting to communicate that all that happnes is unavoidably foreordained by God? Of course not! They are merely witenessing to a belief that God is sovereign and intimately involved in bringing about the salvation of mankind. THerefore, various events and circumstances are going to be intepreted this way by God's people because of their expectation that God will do these very things.
How the story of Judas can be used to justify determinism in good conscience is beyond me... |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |