The Truth about the Brothers & Sisters

The Thadman · #41 23rd July 2003, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Credo

Are you suggesting that the James Ossuary is referring to Jesus the Savior?

Yes, that is what I believe.

Relatives were never mentioned on ossuaries unless the relative in question was famous or very well known. It is unheard of to have a close friend's name on an ossuary.

With these two things in mind, we're looking at a man named Ya`qoov (James) whose father was Yosef (Joseph), and whose famous brother's name was Yeshu` (Jesus).

Although James, Joseph, and Jesus were popular names in the 1st Century, there's only one combination that I can think of that matches up.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

nyj · #42 23rd July 2003, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by The Thadman

Yes, that is what I believe.

Relatives were never mentioned on ossuaries unless the relative in question was famous or very well known. It is unheard of to have a close friend's name on an ossuary.

With these two things in mind, we're looking at a man named Ya`qoov (James) whose father was Yosef (Joseph), and whose famous brother's name was Yeshu` (Jesus).

Although James, Joseph, and Jesus were popular names in the 1st Century, there's only one combination that I can think of that matches up.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The ossuary is a fake. Moot point.

edward · #43 23rd July 2003, 04:51 PM

Thadman, the inscription has been determined a fake.

Read this: http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en....=Article^l1569

The Thadman · #44 23rd July 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by nyj

The ossuary is a fake. Moot point.

For the sake of this argument, we'll keep it moot; but, I would like to remind you that the institution that claims that it is fake has yet to publish their results in a credible academic journal last time I checked (unless things have changed).

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · #45 23rd July 2003, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by edward

Thadman, the inscription has been determined a fake.

Read this: http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en....=Article^l1569

Altman is full of it. :-) She is NO expert of ancient scripts, because she doesn't even know simple Aramaic constructions. Once she said "As an expert on scripts and an historian of writing systems, I was asked to examine this inscription and make a report. I did" it went downhill FAST.

Here's an email I sent to her editor some time ago:

From: Steve Caruso <Thadman@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu May 8, 2003 3:57:49 PM US/Eastern
To: editor@israelinsider.com
Subject: One of your writers made a rather embarrassing mistake.
<snip>

To Whom It May Concern,

At:

http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en....0&enZone=Views

The author, Rochelle I. Altman, makes the following comment:

-----
"As an expert on scripts and an historian of writing systems, I was asked to examine this inscription and make a report. I did.

The bone-box is original; the first inscription, which is in Aramaic, "Jacob son of Joseph," is authentic. The second half of the inscription, "brother of Jesus," is a poorly executed fake and a later addition. This report has already been distributed on at least two scholarly lists.

Please note that the fraud is so blatant that I did not bother to go into extreme detail on whether the faked addition is supposed to be Hebrew or Aramaic. (If that's a vav, -- then it's Hebrew, not Aramaic; if it's yod, then it's says 'my brother', not 'his brother' or 'brother of'. By no stretch of the imagination can one claim this to be in Aramaic... 'of' in Aramaic is 'di'.)

You have to be blind as a bat not to see that the second part is a fraud... "
-----

Firstoff, If the letter in question is a yoodh, it does not mean "my brother." It forms the phrase "Akkooee d-Yeshu`" which means "His brothers, one of whom was Jesus." It even utilizes the dropped He (the full spelling of "Akkooee" (Olaf-Kkeyth-Wau-Yoodh) is "Akkoohee" (Olaf-Kkeyth-Wau-He-Yoodh)), which was a common feature of spelling in the 1st Century.

Secondoff, I find this very embarassing, the self-proclaimed expert does not know of simple Aramaic Proclitics. A Dolath when stuck onto the beginning of a word makes it "of _____." It was originally "di" (Dolath-Yoodh) (way back BEFORE Jesus' time), but much time before the 1st Century, it became proclitic. The proclitic Dolath is also used in the Construct State of nouns:

When two nouns are put one after another and the first has the 3rd person personal pronoun ("his" or "her" in english), while the second has the proclitic Dolath, it puts them into a genitive and definite relationship. For example:

Akko d-Yeshu` = A brother of Jesus
Akkeh d-Yeshu` = THE Brother OF Jesus
Akkooee d-Yeshu` = (One of) THE Brothers OF Jesus / His Brothers one of whom was Jesus.

("-eh" is the 3rd person personal pronoun of singular nouns, where "-ooee"/"-oohee" is the 3rd person personal pronoun of plural nouns.)

Hope this help!

Shlomo!
(Peace!)

---------------------------------------
Steve Caruso
(a.k.a. "The Thadman")

Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
(http://www.AramaicNT.org)
Lead Programmer, eBethArké
(http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)
Rutgers University, NJ

Thadman@mindspring.com
http://www.AramaicNT.org
AIM/Yahoo!: TheThadman1
----------------------------------------

And the editor replied:

From: Israel Insider Editor <editor@israelinsider.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:27:10 +0200
To: Thadman@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: One of your writers made a rather embarassing mistake
Status: U
<snip>

Hello Steve,
*
Thank you for visiting Israel Insider and for taking the time to comment on this article, which attracted a lot of interest.
*
Unfortunately I have lost contact with Rochelle Altman.* I would be interested in hearing her response to what you wrote.
*
Sincerely,
Ellis Shuman

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Ellis Shuman
Editor in Chief
http://www.israelinsider.com
Koret Communications
Tel Aviv
03-620-4777 ext. 112
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Long and the short of it, Rochelle did not know 1st Century Aramaic as well as she claimed. :-) The script -does- check out, as does the spelling and grammar.

As I said just a bit earlier, for the sake of this argument, let's say it's moot.

Shlomo,
--
Steve Caruso
(a.k.a. "The Thadman")

Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
(http://www.AramaicNT.org)

Lead Programmer, eBethArke
(http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)

Assistant to the Livingston College Dean of First Year Students
Rutgers University, NJ
(http://livingston.Rutgers.edu)

Reader Nilus · #46 23rd July 2003, 06:28 PM

We can speculate all we want, but the Church says Mary is Ever-Virgin and that is a confession that all Catholics and Orthodox are obligated to make, it is not an option. To me that is the most reasonable, and Jesus' brothers are Joseph's children from a prior marriage.
Jeff the Finn

The Thadman · #47 23rd July 2003, 06:38 PM

All I can really say is, "Does this matter?."

The only thing I was pointing out were misconceptions concerning the Aramaic language and culture of the 1st Century.

I honestly do not think that whether or not Mary was an eternal virgin has any effect on salvation.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Axion · #48 24th July 2003, 01:00 AM

With these two things in mind, we're looking at a man named Ya`qoov (James) whose father was Yosef (Joseph), and whose famous brother's name was Yeshu` (Jesus).

Although James, Joseph, and Jesus were popular names in the 1st Century, there's only one combination that I can think of that matches up

This is about as pointless as someone in a thousand years time finding (or forging) a dedication to a "William, son of William, wife of Monica" , and trying to use it as proof that Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky got married!!!

The straws some people will cling to to try to argue against the virginity of the Virgin Mary!

And by the way, Yeshua does not translate to Jesus as such. (Jesus is a later Latinisation) It translates to Joshua, one of the commonest names of the time. Just as Ya'qoov is actually the more common Jacob, not strictly "James".

Credo · #49 24th July 2003, 10:58 AM

Dealer arrested for forgery of Jesus inscription:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968705899037

The Thadman · #50 24th July 2003, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Axion

((1))This is about as pointless as someone in a thousand years time finding (or forging) a dedication to a "William, son of William, wife of Monica" , and trying to use it as proof that Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky got married!!!

((2))The straws some people will cling to to try to argue against the virginity of the Virgin Mary!

((3))And by the way, Yeshua does not translate to Jesus as such. (Jesus is a later Latinisation) It translates to Joshua, one of the commonest names of the time. Just as Ya'qoov is actually the more common Jacob, not strictly "James".

1) Er, William, son of William, WIFE OF MONICA?... Er.. Billy's a girl? :-)

Although I understand your point, and I know what you meant (teasing aside), we're talking about 60-ish AD Jewish custom on ossuaries. 2000-ish AD American custom is rather liberal with who is mentioned on tombstones, and ossuaries aren't even used anymore.

2) I'm talking about Aramaic, not Mary's virginity. As I said before in stating my opinion: "Does it matter?" If yes, why? If no, why? :-)

3)Yeshu` does translate closer to Jesus than Joshua (in english).

"Joshua"/"Jesus" in Hebrew is "Yehoshua`" where
"Joshua"/"Jesus" in Aramaic is "Yeshu`"

The key lies within the tetragrammatical reference in the two languages.

In Hebrew it is "Yoodh-He" pronounced "Yeho" or "Yahu"
In Aramaic it is "Yoodh-'Olaf" pronounced "Ye'" or "Yo'"

For example: "Elijah"
Hebrew: "'Eleeyahu"
Aramaic: "Eeleeyo'"

"Jesus" usually refers to the Aramaic counterpart where "Joshua" refers to the Hebrew, but for all intents and purposes, it's the same name in two sister-languages.

"Jacob" is actually closer to the Aramaic, but "Jacob" usually refers to the name in Hebrew, where "James" usually refers to the name in Aramaic.

Shlomo,
(Peace)
--
Steve Caruso
(a.k.a. "The Thadman")

Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
(http://www.AramaicNT.org)

Lead Programmer, eBethArke
(http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)

Assistant to the Livingston College Dean of First Year Students
Rutgers University, NJ
(http://livingston.Rutgers.edu)