Bear's ramblings

I took this test this morning.... Thanks Red for finding it!

http://www.kodachrome.org/spiritgift/

My top 5
Knowledge, Wisdom, Missionary, Administration, and Apostle

My bottom 5
Hospitality, Giving, Healing, Intercession, and Music

Now, what blows my mind, is that the gifts I've exercised in the past are the reverse of what the test shows I have... excluding of course hospitality. It hit the mark there! A long bearded scary dude who is a bit of a slob doesn't exactly fit the bill of hospitality. so the test was correct in that regard. Just not my cup of tea.

Otoh, Apostle
It is the gift whereby the Spirit appoints certain Christians to lead, inspire and develop the churches of God by the proclamation and the teaching of true doctrine.
See Acts 12:1-5 , Acts 14:21-23 .

Or Knowledge
It is the special gift whereby the Spirit enables certain Christians to understand in an exceptional way the great truths of God's Word and to make them relevant to specific situations in the church.
See Ephesians 3:14-19 .

Or Administration
It is the special gift whereby the Spirit enables certain Christians to understand the goals of a given segment of the Church's ministry and to direct that area effectively, keeping the Church on course.
See Acts 12:12-21 .

Uh no..... this is not the deal and is not me. I will need to go and do a little more digging, and retake the test when I am wider awake, and maybe take some of the other tests too.

I sort of have fun taking internet tests, sometimes a person can learn things about themselve, or just have fun. eg, on one test, it says I'm a nerd guru so to speak, but that I already knew....

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

This time I checked our Elmer Town's Spiritual Gift Questionaire.

So, my top 3 were shepherd, helper, and teacher.... those are a lot more palatable than the other test I took. Now the one thing about this test was its sort of tuned in to a specific world view, so I somewhat questioned its validity along the way, but was pleasantly surprised at the outcome this time around.

Now the interesting thing about all this, is the last test showed Apostle, Knowledge, and and Administration... and through a series of events this week, I had to really dig into my walk and put a mini CV together as part of a document package. In the process of doing so, I realized that perhaps the earlier test was perhaps not so much off the mark.

To some extent, I think last weeks test showed where I was at as a young guy, vs this week shows more so where I am at today. I almost wonder if I had done these tests in the reverse order, as todays test which seemed to correlate with a specific world view, was one that I held as a young guy, but age and life experience have changed that signifitcantly.

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

I run into this quite a bit, ie the concern for the stumbling brother results in not exercising liberty. On the outset, it makes some sense and is scriptural, but it is only part of the story. Lets look at 1 Corinthians 10:23-24
John Calvin makes this pretty clear. "Of Christian Liberty"

Yes, indeed, it would be easier to get rid of all grey, and abstain from liberty, yet as Calvin alluded to we can and must use liberty for the good and edification of our neighbor as well. It is a 2 way and most uncomfortable street, but it is what we are called to do.

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

Yep...

And I don't mean boxing or wrestling ministry, although perhaps they do exist. Certainly within the professional sports arena, most orgs do have chaplains.

What I'm getting at is congregation debate and discourse. This has been a topic I've wondered about for a while, and came across the following resources.

Journal of John Wesley, Volume II,
Putting It Together in the Parish, James Glasse
Has a chapter called "Learning to Fight like Christians in the Church" Here are a couple key thoughts.

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

Ok, I was over at St Mary's this evening (nope, not sick myself), and ended up playing the hurry up and wait game, as were a lot of other folks.... I find it so amazing, folks will sit and look glumb and stare at the wall while waiting. I think they need a resident wise guy. I chatted with a few folks, even got a smile from one guy, who looked to be in a world of hurt. Words of encouragement can make a difference. Why do folks not talk to each other.... go figure.

Anyhow, after a bit I had to go wait in another area, and pulled out my Palm and brought up Bible+. It was cool, the first thing on the screen was Romans 16. Not being one into greetings, since I had just greeted some folks, I skipped ahead a bit.

Since I had just been reading over a seminary newsletter earlier this week, I got thinking. We can go round and round and round, and seminary can be a huge challenge to ones faith. For some folks, they go in on fire for Jesus, and then leave with zero aspirations of preaching, and some are filled with doubt. It brings to mind a few thoughts.
1. Is seminary teaching in opposition to ones earlier learning? It can be, if one is not prepared.
2. Do seminary teachers serve Christ, absolutely, are their words fair and flattering... no, they can be pretty rough.
3. Does seminary make one wise as to what is good and simple as to what is evil, I think for the most part it does, perhaps too much so at times, as Matthew also talks about being harmless as doves, and wise as serpants. Too many a young paster is ill equipped for the wise as serpants arena.

So then, why do folks get disillusioned and loose faith

part 2 will try to address this

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

Sorry this is out of order, but I need to note this.... part 2 will be next, sorry for the delay and mess..

Romans 16:19
19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I want you to be wise as to what is good, and simple as to what is evil;

Thought
In overt emphasis on evil, are we predisposing believers to sin? If we preach heavily on A, does this make A more of a problem than it would have been? Is this a screwup in law/gospel application? It might be, it seems to be a centuries old problem of preaching the 1st and 2nd use of the law to believers instead of the 3rd.... hmmm

Formulary of the Book of Concord
Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life... (E-FC, VI, 1)

The scripture backing the third use of the law for reference

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
- Romans 3:31

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
- Romans 8:1-4

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
- Romans 13:8-10

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

This was so cool, I just had to post it here.

Taken from: What Luther Didn’t Say about Vocation FREDERICK J. GAISER, WORD & WORLD Theology for Christian Ministry VOLUME XXV FALL 2005 NUMBER 4

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

I came across this website, while doing some research in another area and when whoa.... talk about unusual, but then again, there is a lot of diversity within the Body of Christ. I just hope these folks with all their rules and such do leave room for the Holy Spirit to convict and guide them, rather than just following rule for purposes of following rules.

Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for everything, and it may be some churches choose to follow these paths for a while, and as long as it God's call rather than man, there is a potential for good. Imho, the potential for danger is much much higher, but we are all at different places with our walk with Jesus, and some for a time may need to follow these paths.


http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/legalism.scale.htm

Some follow up questions:
1. Have you ever met people at level one—tell about it.
A few folks, I used to refer to them as separatists, but I guess there are those who are much more legalistic than that. I will need to change my terminology I think.

2. Have you (or your church) moved through your lifetime?
As a young guy, I was close to level 1 for a number of years, but never so far as to classify myself that way. My church has always been level 0, although as of the last 15 years tended to go towards a level -1 if there was one.

3. Has your movement tended to be in concert with the culture’s move—the distance from the world is the same though you still moved?
Not really, if anything they were more anti legalistic years 50 years ago than they are now, perhaps a -2 if there was one.

4. Which one of the “rules” above do have clear Biblical support? Which don’t?
******* will add, this will take a while ******
very few do within context, yet, many may be good ideas if they Holy Spirit convicts one to follow a specific path

5. To what extent do people expect to move part way in this process then “freeze in” change claiming everything above their point on the list is “legalism” while everything below are “clear Biblical commands?” (e.g. some would argue that there is more in the Bible about wearing gold and silver than using alcohol—is that true?)
It is true, wealth symbols are explictly called out as bad news, as is drunkeness. The use of alchohol is advised. Pretty much everything there if stated as rules is legalistic. Some of what is written can be edifying and a good thing, but should not be a rule, but a conviction of the Holy Spirit to do this, or not do that. Why legalists don't focus on Paul's writing of wealth symbols and such is beyond me... well perhaps not. Its not a hot button issue to have a nice car etc.

6. When an older generation moves from the first or second level to level three or four, why should they not expect their children to move at least one or two levels beyond them?
Ideally there would be no need for any of these levels if people properly followed scripture. Man has replace God's word with his own rules. This is sad. How many souls are lost as a result? How many Christians become corrupted, or are driven from Christ as a result. While I would not go so far as to say such rules are blasphemy, it is dangerously close.

7. Are these things purely up to an individual and “no business of the church” or does the Christian community have a “right” to tell its members how to live in these areas? Why? Why not?
The church has no business in this matter as far as believers go. This is a matter for the Holy Spirit. Now, as far as unbelievers go, yes, much of this is a good thing to convict them of sin, and their need for redemption. The Law still needs to be preached to believers, but not for purposes of controlling behavior, but so it may become written on their hearts.

8. We have called this a “legalism scale” however if you are in level 1-2 person you would have called it a “worldliness scale.” What is “worldliness?” Is worldliness “sin?” Is there any place for putting distance between the Christian and the world—even if the thing isn’t “sin?”
Christians are to be in the world, but not of it. Ones walk in such matters is a function of the Holy Spirit's conviction, not a matter of rules. It is better to be in the world, but not of it, by showing the gifts of the spirit to all believers and unbelievers. It is not a function of rules, but a function of love.

9. To what extent are these “standards” a matter of sociology—identity matters for a group? Is that wrong? Foolish? Good?
I think they are a huge matter of sociology for the most part. Birds of a feather flock together. It can be good or bad. The key is whether such standards draw one to Christ or not.

10. What Scriptures would you cite to support your own (or your church’s) standards? What Scriptures do you have to wiggle out of for things you permit?

Pretty much all of the Third Use of the Law. (for those not Lutheran, it has numerous references to scripture).
http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-sd/thirduse.html

There is no wiggling, except for those who try to justify legalism.

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

Initially, I came across some writings from Bishop Stephen Bouman, where he is dealing with a ton of conflict concerning issues which I can't bring up in this blog, and he made the following comment.

Often times, I think in the online world, we are not so far apart from each others in matters of disagreement as we perceive we may be. I see this in communication all the time, we just don't quite understand what the other person is saying, and then things take a real header. This is some wise council.

The other thing is, I searched out this book, picked it up for $0.01 on amazon, one of the best 1 cent investments I ever made. James Glasse, although no longer with us, brings a ton of incredibly useful ideas together in his book "Putting it Together in the Parish" This one chapter alone is worth a months worth of study, application and practice. It goes far beyond communications, and demonstrates why arguing can be healthy for a Christian community, and then what safe guards to put in place to keep it that way. As of today, I have already implemented some of his writings, and I believe it fosters improved communication, and more readily shows the gifts of the spirit contrasted with typical internet communications. I am exceedingly impressed.


** Quoted by permission, yep, I wrote the Bishop and asked, figuring it couldn't hurt, and he got right back to me with an affirmative answer that I could use this paragraph. Cool and thanks to him

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]

Nope, this is not what you think

As an undergrad physics major, we had an 850 page book for Quantum Physics. Within this book, there was 1 paragraph which became my research specialty for a few years. Within the realm of many scientific theories and laws, often times a page of two our of a science text ends up being one man's life work, and yet, a poor undergrad student is expected to comprehend that information, as well as 20 or so other pages, and 50+ intense derivations every week. It is intense. Systematic theology is also intense. How a seminary student can get a handle on it in a few years is truly amazing to me.

As of late, I've been digging into systematic theology as I am putting together my own personal statement of faith. It would be incredibly easy to just say, hey, go to the church's confessions, and its all there. If only it were so simple. Yep, being a ELCA Lutheran, we subscribe to some but not all of the confessions, and even within them, there is much ambiguity, paradox and mystery... and even within the more explicit statements, I'm not 100% aligned with what is said. I think my ecumenical nature and experiences of multiple denominations puts a slant on things making a seemingly simple task, a most fascinating challenge.

The parallels of thought concerning the positions of systematic theology and scientific research area are becoming more and more clear as I proceed. (now I really have folks wondering )

Within each category of systematic theology, there are subparts, and within them, it is not totally unrealistic to consider it may take one man, the better part of his life to present a position in a cogent and meaningful way. As such for me to simply go down a list and make a call of position or expound on it could well become a life long journey. In fact, if anything, a person's views on their positions within systematic theology could well change over time, as the Holy Spirit illuminates scripture to them, and as they experience the wondrous diversity of God's creation.

This is also puns parallel to scientific research. The seemingly simple set of differential equations presented in my physics texts turned out to be anything but simple, when real world phenomena entered the equation. Thus, within the journey from a paragraph in a text, to a multi year research project, much perspective had been gained. While the initial boundaries presented in the textbook were still valid and useful, there was so much more to it.

I think the same scenario exists within scripture, the confessions of the church, and life. The initial fixed points are good for a place of reference, but as we grow with God, there is yet a whole other world out there yet to be explored. It is a fascinating ride.

Perhaps to illustrate this more clearly is to use the parable of the good Samaritan and see how it expands. Lest I ramble too long, I will leave this discussion and switch to parable discussion mode

Initially, when we read the parable of the good Samaritan, its all too easy to only focus on one thing, and that is the care of the man along side the road. The Samaritan is being a neighbor to this man in caring for him. Yet, to love our neighbors, we can also look back and see another aspect. Jesus told the parable in response to a Pharisee's question. It is indeed possible, and likely that we are also to consider the Samaritan as our neighbor, as well as the man along side the road. Way too many times we focus on the man on the road as its obvious, but certainly, this does not preclude focusing on the good Samaritans in our life as well. Doing so is harder to identify with, as they seemingly always have all their ducks in a row, yet they struggle as well. Let us all make a point to pray for and support our good Samaritans. They need God's love and comfort too. It is never to late to tell your pastor, priest, minister, little old church lady who does everything for everyone, etc that they are appreciated and loved.

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[SIZE="1"]To those that are cast down on account of their sins Christ must be introduced as a Savior and Gift, and not as an example. But to sinners who live in a false assurance, Christ must be introduced as an example. The hard sayings of Scripture and the awful judgments of God upon sin must be impressed upon them. Defy Satan in times of despair. Say: "O cursed Satan, you choose a nice time to talk to me about doing and working when you know very well that I am in trouble over my sins. I will not listen to you. I will listen to Christ, who says that He came into the world to save sinners. This is the true Christ and there is none other. I can find plenty of examples for a holy life in Abraham, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, and other saints. But they cannot forgive my sins. They cannot save me. They cannot procure for me everlasting life. Therefore I will not have you for my teacher, O Satan."[/SIZE]

[CENTER]Martin Luther, Commentary on Galations 5:8[/CENTER]