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26th July 2005, 10:35 PM
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Reps: 1,533 (power: 9) | | Calminian, Originally Posted by Calminian I've asked this to many atheists and have always found the answers intriguing. What would it take for you to believe (trust) in the God of the Bible? Miracles? Direct contact? Or is evidence really the issue? Looking forward to your feedback.
Make a testable statement about God, then let the science do the talking.
If the evidence affirms, you'll make me a believer. And if not, I'll be an atheist for another day. | 
26th July 2005, 10:45 PM
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Suddenly, they reformed and spelled out
"Dude, I did it all! Get it? Got it? GOOD!"
Ive been pretty much convinced since that point on.
(sorry, couldnt help myself)
__________________ "And yes, to prove evolution is wrong does not mean creation is right. But, the goal is just that, to prove evolution is wrong. Nothing else."
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26th July 2005, 11:54 PM
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Reps: 740,063,552 (power: 740,076) | | | Hey Calminian, what would it take for you to believe (trust) in the God of the Zoroastrian Avesta? Miracles? Direct contact? Objectively demonstrable evidence of some kind? Or have you already decided never to change your mind no matter what?
What if Jesus himself appeared before you, and told you that his name was really Mithras, that he was an avatar of Mazda, and that the Bible had gotten everything wrong because it was originally the revelations of Zarathustra, but that the Judeans had rewritten the story as their own? I'll bet you would accuse him of being Satan himself, -or you would try to get a prescription to thorazine, which is what I think I would do. But even if it came from the apparition of Jesus himself, you wouldn't accept it, if you didn't expect it.
__________________ "To see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." --Benjamin Franklin "Faith means not wanting to know what is true." --Frederich Nietzche` "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." --Mark Twain "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding," --Reverend Martin Luther | 
27th July 2005, 12:16 AM
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Reps: 9,354,305,717,106,792 (power: 9,354,305,717,114) | | Originally Posted by Aron-Ra
I wouldn't require that much to believe there could be a god, but I would need evidence of that. I don't care what the evidence is, as long as it is logically compelling, something which could be objectively demonstrated in lieu of faith, and that could at least withstand reasonable analysis and scrutiny. But in order for me to believe in a god, which is a supernatural being with supernatural powers, I would first have to be shown that supernatural powers do in fact exist, for if they do not, than gods can't exist either.
Then, since I've always favored a Taoist perspective, which permits supernatural powers, but does not include a god, -then I would need additional evidence to specifically indicate that a god is included in the supernatural, paranormal, psychic or psionic realm I've already been shown to exist. Otherwise, I would become a Taoist again, and be happy to remain one.
Then, once I've been shown that a god exists, then I would need evidece to indicate that there is only one such being. Otherwise, every man's favorite deity, be it Thor, Cernunnos, Brahma, Bast, Indra, Dionysus, Pele, Nu Kua, or the Lords of Xibalba might all exist.
After that, I would need to see that the one god is specifically your god, and that's a little harder to do, I admit, since I see so much inconsistency in Christian beliefs. Because as far as I'm concerned, if there is a single deity, then all theists and other spiritualists must all have perceived him, albeit differently. In that case, El, Allah, Abba, YHWH, Jehova, Jesus, Krsna, Mazda, Mithras, Marduk, Guru Nanak, Cernunnos, Buddha, Brahma, Bahá'u'lláh, the Great Spirit, Quetzacoatl, Odin, Amen, Ra, Pele, Zeus, Gaia, "the goddess", and even the Tao, are all different names for the same entity. For as the Hindus say, "all are Krsna, all are one", and they mean this to imply that everyone really worships their god, whether anyone realizes that or not. Some of them even go so far as to say that Jesus is the 9th avatar of Vishnu, -which would make sense, if there really was a god, and there was only one of them, and all men who claim to really had the ability to by moved by him through their faith.
But even if I believed in supernatural things, including gods, and even specifically your god alone, I still couldn't believe in the Bible. Some of it might be true, but there is too much of it that is already known for certain not to be. Even if your god exists, the Bible would still be wrong, and even if I believed in him, I still couldn't believe in it. And why should I? Just because some ancient scribes wrote their beliefs down for others to follow? What religion hasn't done that? The Torah, the Gospels, the Qur'an, the Avestas the Vedas, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Adi-Granth Bhagavad-Gita, & Book of Mormon -are all called "absolute truth" and the "revealed word" of the "one true god" and believers say everyone else is deceived. Perhaps all of them are.
I kind of like you, but you kind of scare me all at the same time
Richard (still wondering what God had against 4400 genera of brachiopods...) | 
27th July 2005, 02:45 AM
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Reps: 4,963 (power: 15) | | Originally Posted by Calminian Just a quick follow up question, would a person whom you believed was raised from the dead be able to convince you to trust in the God of the Bible?
That would at least help. Of course, followers of other religions will be sure to drop in and claim that as a miracle done by their deity too, so we'd still have to face the question "No who exactly did it?"... but yes, scientifically validated resurrection would help.
__________________ "ODIN, take this offering from us
be our guidance in war
let us not return without victory
RATHER WE DIE!"
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27th July 2005, 05:07 AM
|  | Senior Member 33  | | Join Date: 6th September 2004 Location: Vancouver, WA
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There's plenty more where that came from... Now make with the science and explain this away... | 
27th July 2005, 05:12 AM
|  | WinAce > cdesign proponentsists 33 
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__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging. | 
27th July 2005, 05:15 AM
|  | Take two snuggles and call me in the morning
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Reps: 9,311 (power: 21) | | Originally Posted by ChrisB803 There's plenty more where that came from... Now make with the science and explain this away...
Well, only since you asked... http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa121001a.htm
But as a pantheist I see the divine in the beautiful symatry of a snowflake as well. | 
27th July 2005, 05:17 AM
|  | Senior Member 33  | | Join Date: 6th September 2004 Location: Vancouver, WA
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Reps: 1,268 (power: 10) | | Originally Posted by Jet Black you think God designs every single snowflake?
That's not the point. No, I don't think God, or maybe some angel is up there hand crafting each snowflake, but it's incredible beauty like this in the world, and indeed the universe as a whole (just check out some of the shots from the Hubble telescope), and you have to think there's some kind of a creative force behind it all.
I think it takes far more faith to think that even the small amount we've discovered could simply be a chance happening. | 
27th July 2005, 05:24 AM
|  | Take two snuggles and call me in the morning
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Reps: 9,311 (power: 21) | | Originally Posted by ChrisB803 That's not the point. No, I don't think God, or maybe some angel is up there hand crafting each snowflake, but it's incredible beauty like this in the world, and indeed the universe as a whole (just check out some of the shots from the Hubble telescope), and you have to think there's some kind of a creative force behind it all.
I think it takes far more faith to think that even the small amount we've discovered could simply be a chance happening.
It's funny, you actually sound a lot like a pantheist, except for one little thing. To a pantheist, there is no creative force behind anything, god does not make snowflakes, he does not make things beautiful, god is the snowflake.
This post was mainly so I could say god is a snowflake |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |