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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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  #41  
Unread 29th June 2005, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rev. Smith
Constantine converted because he believed that Jesus had blessed his victory in a civil war, that lead him to the throne. He knew little of the nature of the dispute, only that it was divisive (it was, about 40% of the Bishops sided with Arius). A lot of evidance suggests that Constantine didn't much care what the Synod concluded, as long as it reached one.
In support of Rev. Smith's assertions:



1) At the time of the Donatist controversy, Constantine wrote:
I consider it absolutely contrary to the divine law that we should overlook such quarrels and contentions ... whereby the Highest Divinity may perhaps be roused not only against the human race but also against myself, to whose care he has by his celestial will committed the government of all earthly things.


2) In a letter to Arius and his chief opponent, Bishop Alexander of Alexandria, Constantine wrote:
The cause of your differences has not been any of the leadership doctrines or precepts of the Divine Law, nor has any new heresy respecting the worship of God arisen among you. You are in truth of one and the same judgment: you may therefore well join in communion and fellowship.


3) Constantine ordered his own distant relative, Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, into exile for continuing to defend Arius after the Nicene Council. (He was allowed to return in 329.)


4) In 335, Constantine ordered Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria -- Alexander's successor, and a fierce opponent of Arius -- into exile. He was only allowed to return when Constantine died.

5) Also in 335, Constantine summoned Arius to Constantinople and ordered Bishop Alexander of Constantinople to admit Arius to communion. (Alexander prayed that either he or Arius might die before this came to pass, and the day before he was to have been admitted to communion, Arius died of a hemorrhage in a public latrine. It was widely considered a clear sign from God of the error of Arius' teachings.)

6) When Constantine was finally baptized shortly before his death in 337, he chose to be baptized by the Arian Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia.

All in all, it's absolutely clear that Constantine was not particularly interested in or passionate about theology, that his interest was in promoting unity, and that, as Rev. Smith says, he didn't much care what conclusion the Nicene Council reached, as long as it reached one.
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  #42  
Unread 29th June 2005, 06:01 AM
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Its not an oath. Whether Constantine or Arias belived in it is irrelevant. The Nicene Creed forms the basis of all major Christian churches. RC, Orthodox, Lutherian, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical Alliance, etc because it is a summary that expresses the truth if the faith.
I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

Peace
  #43  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:00 AM
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Hi, everyone!

I think that many of you will be interested in this thread. Maybe if a lot of people agree, the CF definition of a Christian will be changed...
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  #44  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:06 AM
sine ira et studio

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Originally Posted by :: Starlight ::
Hi, everyone!

I think that many of you will be interested in this thread. Maybe if a lot of people agree, the CF definition of a Christian will be changed...
The definition will never change. It hasn't for nearly 1700 years, and if the basics of the Christian faith are open to interpretation, what else is open to interpretation?
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  #45  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Scholar in training
The definition will never change. It hasn't for nearly 1700 years, and if the basics of the Christian faith are open to interpretation, what else is open to interpretation?
I've seen Christians on CF who don't accept the whole NC, so I think there should be a new, more inclusive definition.
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And whither then? I cannot say."



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  #46  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:21 AM
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No. The Nicene Creed is made up of the scriptures from the community of apostles and disciples that Jesus taught, they received the Holy Spirit as well.
So the danger is that the definition of Christian may be cahnged from Christ's to man's. Its not the Nicene Creed that makes one a Christian, its the One the Nicene Creed testifies to.

If there are lines that people cant sign up to then that means there are bits of the scripture they cant sign up to. Lets assume then that those who do 'sign up' believe all those relevent bits of the testimony of Christ Jesus and thsoe who cant sign up dont. There is no other Jesus Christ who is the God the Son that I knwo of other than the one who said He was to the first disciples and apostles who believed Him.

So in short do we believe that Jesus was of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30), that through Him all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2) and that for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5), He came down form heaven (John 6: 33,35) etc?

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  #47  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by :: Starlight ::
I've seen Christians on CF who don't accept the whole NC, so I think there should be a new, more inclusive definition.
I think that things like Christ's devinity and how we are saved are rather important and uncompromisable aspects of the faith.
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  #48  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:40 AM
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Let me rephrase this...Who on this earth has the power or is pious enough to judge anothers faith...If I say I am a christian and follow the teachings of Christ then should that not be enough? Why do I need to adhere or even Allow a creed to define what my faith is....I ask this...Would Christ Approve of the N.C. would he say it??
  #49  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by INFALLIBLE
Let me rephrase this...Who on this earth has the power or is pious enough to judge anothers faith...If I say I am a christian and follow the teachings of Christ then should that not be enough? Why do I need to adhere or even Allow a creed to define what my faith is....I ask this...Would Christ Approve of the N.C. would he say it??
Well, would you say that someone can be a Christian and serve many gods? Why or why not?
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  #50  
Unread 29th June 2005, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Scholar in training
Well, would you say that someone can be a Christian and serve many gods? Why or why not?
what did CHRIST say about serving more then one God....

lI will repeat what I said:

If I say I am a christian and follow the teachings of Christ then should that not be enough?
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