God powers my flashlight.

LouisBooth · #41 2nd July 2002, 04:38 AM

That is not applicable to the creation of life.

npetreley · #42 2nd July 2002, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Freodin

When I paint a picture, did I not "create" beauty? When I tell a joke, did I not "create" happyness?

Well, some people just can't tell a joke.

DrLao · #43 2nd July 2002, 12:34 PM

I should amend what I said. The flashlight is creating photons even before it is turned on, we just can't see them. Everything above absolute zero emits radiation. And absorbs it.

My definition of a photon:

the quantum of the electromagnetic field that manifests itself by absorption or emission only in multiple quantum units of energy E = hn, where h is Planck’s constant and n is the frequency of the electromagnetic wave; a unique massless particle that carries the electromagnetic force.

seebs · #44 2nd July 2002, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"When uranium decays into lead, there is *less* uranium, and *more* lead. Lead was created, uranium was destroyed. "

*sigh* not according to the basic chemistry of it...same stuff..less particles, then again, this is not like the other process you talked about at all. You put together things. so lets just stick to that shall we?

Ur->Pb is not chemistry. No chemistry is involved in this one.

"Are we "creating" energy? No. We are, however, creating photons. "

Seebs as always you're jumping around without adressing the one thing you start with. Now, you say you create light, ie photons...Lets look at another approach, is this the first time light was created? (assuming your position is right, even though I disagree but you don't want to address that). the clear answer: NOPE. So you are not the original creator, nor have you "changed" it. Thus the analogy again is wrong that God is not the orignal creator of species and no new species are created. Case closed..yet again.

This may be the first time this *particular* light was created. It's not the first time *ANY* light was created... but when cats make kittens, they are *CREATING* new kittens. Those kittens did not previously exist.

When something emits photons, those photons *come into existance*. They weren't there before.

I just don't see why you're so dogmatic about this; is God so limited that He can only make things directly, never by creating a system such that they follow naturally from it?

Freodin · #45 2nd July 2002, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
That is not applicable to the creation of life.

Why not?

And what is "life"?

LouisBooth · #46 3rd July 2002, 01:45 AM

"Those kittens did not previously exist. "

wrong, according to the arugment I made, they were.

"is God so limited that He can only make things directly, never by creating a system such that they follow naturally from it?"

*sigh* in terms of life, I think it is a self imposed limiation that goes along with my interpreation of the hebrew word for day. God can't sin either, does that make him "limited" no, it doesn't. Your logic is flawed (as always) seebs.

LouisBooth · #47 3rd July 2002, 01:46 AM

"Why not?

And what is "life"?"

*sigh* gave you my answer. I'm not willing to devote the time that it takes to pound out the further discussion this line of thinking will bring

seebs · #48 3rd July 2002, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Those kittens did not previously exist. "

wrong, according to the arugment I made, they were.

Then I think your argument is wrong; I think it's pretty clear that, as of today, no kitten exists that will be born a year from now. (I picked "a year" to be safely outside cat gestation time.)

New things are created and destroyed according to the rules God set down.

"is God so limited that He can only make things directly, never by creating a system such that they follow naturally from it?"

*sigh* in terms of life, I think it is a self imposed limiation that goes along with my interpreation of the hebrew word for day. God can't sin either, does that make him "limited" no, it doesn't. Your logic is flawed (as always) seebs.

It's not my logic, it's the question of which premises you have.

The Hebrew word for "day" has nothing to do with whether or not life is being created *NOW*. Nowadays, we believe that babies are made through a biological process that I'll assume everyone here is familiar with; this process is basically similar in all mammals.

Before mommy and daddy cat decide they like each other, THERE ARE NO KITTENS. The kittens are made at some future point.

Basically, I can't see any basis for your claim that these things (photons, kittens, whatever) are not "created". If, at a given point, a thing does not exist, and later, it does exist, then it was *MADE* between those times. Saying that it's not the *first* photon, or the *first* cat, is irrelevant: Right now, today, both photons and cats are *BEING CREATED*. And they are doing so according to processes that God has set down, and I am not particularly convinced that He is doing anything different when a photon is created than when an electron moves from one place to another; it's just the underlying physics He chose to institute.

Similarly, I don't think God "makes" kittens today anymore than He is actively "making" the pennies in my penny jar; yes, everything that happens happens as He wills it, but that's just as true of things continuing to exist as it is of them coming into existance, and isn't a very useful concept in trying to understand physics.

For *OUR* purposes, as people who wish to understand why the flashlight only works when it has batteries in it, it is necessary to understand physics, and we end up learning that photons are *CREATED* by the flashlight, from energy which was stored in the batteries.

Not_a_fundie · #49 3rd July 2002, 11:33 AM

And what is "life"?"

Life is anything that has:
#1)Organization:
Everything is organized so that certain cells preform a certain variety of functions.

#2)Reproduction:
All organisms can reproduce to create another organism similar to themselves.

#3)Reaction to stimuli/Adaptation to environment:
All organisms must have the ability to adjust to their surroundings and react to stimuli in order to survive.(scratching an arm after a mosquito bite, or anything to that effect)

#4)Growth and development:
All organisms must grow from birth.

#5)Energy consumption:
All organisms must consume energy to survive.

Hope this cleared that up a little.

tycho · #50 3rd July 2002, 12:06 PM

#2)Reproduction: All organisms can reproduce to create another organism similar to themselves.

All? So sterile "worker" insects are not alive?