Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
But God does guarantee, not that unbelievers will become believers, but that they at least will fall on their faces in worship and declaration of God's presence when they attend a church service where all the believers prophesy. Chew on that one.
I'm not asking why I don't believe. Perhaps I can rephrase.
A: God rewards believers and punishes infidels.
B: Many people are not christians because of a lack of evidence.
Therefore (C), many people will be punnished because they have not seen evidence.
D: A miraculous cure of an uncurable disease is supporting evidence for God
Obtaining and publicizing reliable, medical documentation of a miracle would convert some unbelievers. Failure to do so will be condeming people to punishment when they could have been saved.
So how can anyone justify keeping these miracle cures confidential, obscure, private, unpublicized, and unverified, since this will be harming many people? Surely god saved these people in a miraculous way for a reason.
__________________ Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.
I am told God loves me, and yet the reality of the darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. - Mother Teresa
So how can anyone justify keeping these miracle cures confidential, obscure, private, unpublicized, and unverified, since this will be harming many people?
So because I have been miraculously healed, I am obligated to the death to jump through every hoop every unbeliever requires for them to be convinced. I didn't know that! My Bible just says to give the Lord thanks, praise and glory. He doesn't expect me to beat unbelievers over their stubborn skulls with the facts. I could do that, but at my own risk and expense.
__________________
Jesus Christ is Lord of all.
Acts 10:36
...Abraham believed God (not his priest, pope, pastor, favorite radio preacher, or parents), and it was counted unto him as righteousness. - Romans 4:3 We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well to take heed. - II Peter 1:19
So because I have been miraculously healed, I am obligated to the death to jump through every hoop every unbeliever requires for them to be convinced.
No. If you like, there are many missionaries which jump through more than one or two hoops in their efforts to save people. I'm sure that you could delegate much of the responsibility to people who were more willing to go through the extra effort.
And, assuming that any of these are real miracles, all of the legwork has likely already been done. All of the medical tests have been performed, and all that's left is to spread the word. Is that such an onerous task? The person who has been miraculously saved must have had ample opportunity to contemplate their mortality, so spending a few minutes to pass of the documentation to some activist seems a light burden for life.
__________________ Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.
I am told God loves me, and yet the reality of the darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. - Mother Teresa
No. If you like, there are many missionaries which jump through more than one or two hoops in their efforts to save people. I'm sure that you could delegate much of the responsibility to people who were more willing to go through the extra effort.
And, assuming that any of these are real miracles, all of the legwork has likely already been done. All of the medical tests have been performed, and all that's left is to spread the word. Is that such an onerous task? The person who has been miraculously saved must have had ample opportunity to contemplate their mortality, so spending a few minutes to pass of the documentation to some activist seems a light burden for life.
This kind of chat reminds me of my son talking about how mankind should just set up a colony on the moon. Its a matter of money. The Lord tells me I am worse than an infidel if I don't support my family. He wants us to work so that we are able to support ourselves and others. You're asking us to drop everything in our lives to report a miracle to people who will simply respond "I don't believe it"? I've got a better idea. Why don't YOU attend a church this next day of worship that believes God for miracles? That would be a whole lot more reasonable expenditure of effort. A LOT more reasonable. In fact, so much more so that I see no reason to go to the extremes you imply I should go to.
__________________
Jesus Christ is Lord of all.
Acts 10:36
...Abraham believed God (not his priest, pope, pastor, favorite radio preacher, or parents), and it was counted unto him as righteousness. - Romans 4:3 We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well to take heed. - II Peter 1:19
Last edited by kenneth558; 30th April 2004 at 11:40 PM.
You're asking us to drop everything in our lives to report a miracle to people who will simply respond "I don't believe it"?
No. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I'm not asking anything of the sort. I'm just asking for the readily available and pre-existing medical documents to be delivered to someone who does care. Medical journals readily publish, missionaries do a lot of leg-work, evangelical churches will spread the word. This hand-off of documents seems a small price to pay for someone whose life has been saved, especially if it can save others.
I've got a better idea. Why don't YOU attend a church this next day of worship that believes God for miracles?
Again, if you re-read what I've said, I have heard claims many times. I, and many others, would like some medical support to these claims. I fail to see what hearing more unsubstantiated claims is meant to accomplish.
In fact, so much more so that I see no reason to go to the extremes you imply I should go through.
Sharing proof of a miracle isn't a reasonable exchange for your life?
__________________ Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.
I am told God loves me, and yet the reality of the darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. - Mother Teresa
No. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I'm not asking anything of the sort. I'm just asking for the readily available and pre-existing medical documents to be delivered to someone who does care. Medical journals readily publish, missionaries do a lot of leg-work, evangelical churches will spread the word. This hand-off of documents seems a small price to pay for someone whose life has been saved, especially if it can save others.
Again, if you re-read what I've said, I have heard claims many times. I, and many others, would like some medical support to these claims. I fail to see what hearing more unsubstantiated claims is meant to accomplish.
Sharing proof of a miracle isn't a reasonable exchange for your life?
I'm getting kicked out of this computer lab. Have to go without an answer for you.....Go to church!!!!!
__________________
Jesus Christ is Lord of all.
Acts 10:36
...Abraham believed God (not his priest, pope, pastor, favorite radio preacher, or parents), and it was counted unto him as righteousness. - Romans 4:3 We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well to take heed. - II Peter 1:19
I'm getting kicked out of this computer lab. Have to go without an answer for you.....Go to church!!!!!
__________________ Please be charitable enough to say "I do not agree" rather than "You do not understand." I spent most of my life as a Christian believer. I was a longtime teacher of the Christian faith. While my knowledge is certainly not encyclopedic, the likelihood is that I do understand. --MuAndNu
I sectioned off the christian God because of course not all who believe in God believe in the same God. The christian God has specific atributes and claims that set him apart from other Gods, like say Hindu Gods or Wiccan Gods, etc.
Thus a jump is made to go from "its a miracle" to "its a miracle caused by a God" to "its a miracle caused by the God I believe in. [christian God for christians]" Obviously to the believer this jump probably makes sense and i've made a similar although less drastic jump many times. However Objectivly there is nothing beyond our own opinion to justify the jump. And similar there is nothing beyond our own opinion and lack of knowledge to justify the labeling of something as a Miracle.
Originally Posted by kenneth558
First, use of the term "christian god" connotes that Christians own God; that He is on their side; that Christians have staked out ownership of God. The reality is that Christians don't have a claim on God - God has a claim...on everything.
As far as whether or not "God did it", I tell the story of Job (its also a book in your Bible named after this man). God let satan attack Job and mess him up bad. But even when satan instigated the evil work, God knew "the buck stops here" with God Himself. God said that He actually was the one who harmed Job! So if you're afraid of praising God for something He didn't do, fear not!
On a side note, Ozzy probably should have died in his recent ATV crash, yet he lived, I wonder if that was just luck, or does god really like the Osbourn show?
Maybe God was giving him another chance to repent and to live right.
If you go to the thread suggested by Ken, you will notice that God doesn't seem to give this second chance to everybody, so that again would suggest God likes Ozzy.
I didn't know that! My Bible just says to give the Lord thanks, praise and glory. He doesn't expect me to beat unbelievers over their stubborn skulls with the facts. I could do that, but at my own risk and expense. 
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