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  #1  
Old 20th June 2002, 07:35 PM
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randman dissects talkorigins.org FAQ

This thread is for randman to select a talkorigins.org FAQ and pick it to pieces. I think this should be a very easy assignment for randman.

Ready, set, GO!
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Old 20th June 2002, 08:36 PM
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Come on, Randman! Don't wimp out on this one; it's all too easy! Show no mercy!
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  #3  
Old 20th June 2002, 09:52 PM
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Drum roll please....
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Old 20th June 2002, 10:01 PM
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I don't have time to dissect the web-site tonight, but here are some completely bogus and misleading statements on one of their FAQs from this link.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

1. "Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don't appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor."

This is the quintessential evolutionist argument. Simply claim something as proven and observed when it isn't. Micro-evolutionary changes are not evidence or observation of macro-evolutionary changes. Basically, the evolutionists set the threshold of "evidence" so low that the same evidence that can be used for creationism is somehow evidence of evolution. Their whole argument is disingenious.

2. "Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order."

totally bogus, but this link answers better than I can
http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp

3. Here transitionals are extremely rare.

"Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species."

But elsewhere they are extremely numerous.


I'l be back later to finish, but the wife insists I go for now.

Last edited by randman; 20th June 2002 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 20th June 2002, 10:14 PM
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This is the quintessential evolutionist argument. Simply claim something as proven and observed when it isn't.
Kind of like how creationists assert the existance of God?

Micro-evolutionary changes are not evidence or observation of macro-evolutionary changes. Basically, the evolutionists set the threshold of "evidence" so low that the same evidence that can be used for creationism is somehow evidence of evolution. Their whole argument is disingenious.
However, you seem to accept that micro-evolution is real. It seems to me that the only difference between micro-evolution (few DNA changes) and macro-evolution(many DNA changes) is a function of degree. With enough time, it seems reasonable (or at least possible) for micro-evolution to lead to macro-evolution.

Now, let's turn your objection around to the idea of a supernatural creator. You want us accept an all-powerful, all-knowing supernatural being much like we want you to accept macro-evolution.

Here's a deal. Since we can demonstrate a "scaled-down" version of macro-evolution (called micro-evolution), can you demonstrate a "scaled-down" version of a supernatural being? In other words, if you can proof the existance of the supernatural, then you will go a LONG way towards getting unbelievers to accept that there might be, indeed, an all-powerful supernatural creator.
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Old 20th June 2002, 10:15 PM
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Old 20th June 2002, 10:16 PM
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Randman, I am impressed that you are actually undertaking this project. I figured you would pull a Nick & run like Forrest when asked to back yourself up. Good job.

Of course, I will have to help show that your dissection is a poor one.

For starters:

This is the quintessential evolutionist argument. Simply claim something as proven and observed when it isn't. Micro-evolutionary changes are not evidence or observation of macro-evolutionary changes. Basically, the evolutionists set the threshold of "evidence" so low that the same evidence that can be used for creationism is somehow evidence of evolution. Their whole argument is disingenious.
Since microevolutionary changes are the proposed MECHANISM for macroevolutionary changes, it is hard to defend the position that observing their occurence doesn not support macroevolution. If there is a legitimate complaint here, it is that the author doesn't definitively prove this statement:
...this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor
This must either be
1) an honest mistake based on confidence in the model
2) a recognition of a fact the substantiation for which I, personally, am not aware of.

The best recourse before making an accusation is posting a message to their feedback to inquire.

Next:

totally bogus, but this link answers better than I can
http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp
This isn't bogus at all. These are examples of the spontaneous arrival of order from a disordered state in the presence of energy and under certain natural conditions. The reason creationists have for the most part switched to specified complexity from "order out of disorder" is this FAQ and deconstructions like it have deconstructed this argument so well.

3. Here transitionals are extremely rare.

"Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species."

But elsewhere they are extremely numerous.
As far as I can tell, you made no point here. You may have been being rushed by your wife (happens to me sometimes too).. I guess I will wait until you clarify
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Old 20th June 2002, 10:48 PM
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Wow. Guess what guys? Randman did selective quoting! That's right! Guess what was the next paragraph down?
The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.

What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.
Hehe. Oops. Way to go Randman. On thermo, I've read that rebuttal. It makes me laugh.

I mean, seriously. His rebuttal is counter to reality. He "contradicts" text-based references with obviously off-the-cuff remarks by Asimov.

Further, his entire rebuttal is flawed by his failure to differentiate between local and net entropy.

Sorry, Randman, you're going to have to be specific on what you think is wrong here. I don't know which if the True.Origins oddities you buy into. From the Rebuttal to the True.Origins link (both nicely posted on the Talk Origins FAQ:
As in the first section, Wallace does not point to any empirical data to support his position that evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. He only ridicules Isaak's FAQ. He does this by relying on quotations from various scientific papers and books. He wants desperately to ally himself with the scientific literature as a show of credibility. However, if you, the reader, will simply obtain the papers and books he quotes and read them completely, you will find them a perfect list of references to refute Wallace's claims. He, I suspect, has never read his own references and does not know they refute his position. This is why I strongly urge the reader to obtain these references and read them completely. His selected quotations totally misrepresent the material presented as I am about to show.

The first thing I discovered is that the second law of thermodynamics can be stated in many different ways and to understand it you must know the state of a given system. In fact, there are different mathematical formulations of the law depending on the system being described. This is where most of the confusion arises. Most of Wallace's quotations are taken from sections where the authors are discussing a system that is not representative of a living system.
You do know the diffence between equilibrium and non-equilibrium thermodynamics, right? I can assure you any chemist or physicist does.

Even better, if you read down to the rebuttal, the author catches Wallace quoting horribly out of context! Here's my favorite:
Wallace takes his quotation from a section called "3. Complexity and Organization." It is obvious that Wallace has not read this paper because the very next sentence after his quotation is "As will be discussed, the role of natural selection in evolution is to transform the structurally complex systems generated according to thermodynamics principles into organized systems."
*snicker*

Third one: What do you know? The next line down:
. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.


"But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life's physical genealogy." - Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994
I think the problem is Randman's inability to to determine what "numerous" means in context. Several thousand transitional fossils is "numerous", yet they're a fraction of the total Fossil 2 database.

And of course, it depends on what transitionals you're talking about, and whether you're talking higher order or lower order...
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  #9  
Old 20th June 2002, 11:08 PM
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"With enough time, it seems reasonable (or at least possible) for micro-evolution to lead to macro-evolution."

Seeming doesn't count. It also seems very reasonable that there is a God yet you obviously have a problem with that. You also have a major problem with the not realizing that people don't pretend to believe in God due to science. Science can help erase or create doubt, but it isn't the beginning point for knowledge of God.

"Now, let's turn your objection around to the idea of a supernatural creator. You want us accept an all-powerful, all-knowing supernatural being much like we want you to accept macro-evolution."

First, I have never claimed science possesses the technology to verify spiritual things. I can state that demonstrations of miracles and signs and wonders do sometimes accompany the gospel, and some do find faith as a result, but just as many refuse to believe regardless.

If you are looking for signs of the supernatural, maybe I can direct you to some Holy Ghost meetings in your area.

Btw, guys, one post at a time. I get to make a few remarks because my wife is busy for the moment, but I won't be here long tonight..

Last edited by randman; 20th June 2002 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 20th June 2002, 11:16 PM
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"Since microevolutionary changes are the proposed MECHANISM for macroevolutionary changes, it is hard to defend the position that observing their occurence doesn not support macroevolution. If there is a legitimate complaint here, it is that the author doesn't definitively prove this statement:"

Calling micro-evolutionary changes evidence for macro-evolution without demonstrating it is what is wrong here. The contention is that macro-evolution has been observed, and that is just pure BS. It has not been observed. The FAQ is just in total error and denial there. if you want to argue it can't be observed without thousands of years, then fine, but don't just flat out lie and claim macro-evolution has been observed especially in denouncing a critic. Micro-evolution may be the proposed mechanism, but it hasn't been proven. To denounce criticism based on this point, the evolutionist must have observed micro-evolution producing macro-evolution and this just hasn't been done.

Moreover, the fossil record does not show species gradually evolving. Species appear suddenly, and exhibit little change. There are no fossils showing micro-evolutionary changes adding up to major changes. PE attempts to address this point, but that is another issue.
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