Question for creationists

seebs · #11 18th June 2002, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Lanakila
Your definition of pitch is most likely incorrect, since petrolium wasn't created until the flood. My understanding is pitch is a sap from a tree. I am not sure if this tree exists today.

I really don't think it's at all plausible to claim that there was no petroleum back then; the physics and chemistry wouldn't come close to working out.

The only consistent way to handle this is to claim that God made the world complete with petroleum. This is no sillier than the rest of the theory.

tycho · #12 18th June 2002, 02:47 PM

Your definition of pitch is most likely incorrect, since petrolium wasn't created until the flood.

Yes, the definition for pitch is obviously wrong. Unless of course, it's the word "ark" that is defined wrongly. Or "flood". "Two"? No matter what discrepancy is brought against a literal translation of the bible, it can always be "literally" translated differently to correct the discrepancy. It's as fool-proof a method to always being right as Nick's "I was joking" method.

npetreley · #13 18th June 2002, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by tycho

Yes, the definition for pitch is obviously wrong. Unless of course, it's the word "ark" that is defined wrongly. Or "flood". "Two"? No matter what discrepancy is brought against a literal translation of the bible, it can always be "literally" translated differently to correct the discrepancy. It's as fool-proof a method to always being right as Nick's "I was joking" method.

It's not a matter of being literal or being figurative or even joking. It is a matter of knowing the language and knowing history. In this case it's not even necessary to look at the original hebrew. You can get clues on how to solve this puzzle from these two translations.

Young's literal translation:

14 `Make for thyself an ark of gopher-wood; rooms dost thou make with the ark, and thou hast covered it within and without with cypress;

Amplified Bible:

14 Make yourself an ark of gopher or cypress wood; make in it rooms (stalls, pens, coops, nests, cages, and compartments) and cover it inside and out with pitch (bitumen).

Bitumen is the best description of what is being used here.

Bitumen is a natural slime that accumulates along the shores of the dead sea. Bitumen can also refer to a substance people created by allowing rotting materials to accumulate in a slime pit. Either way, this "slime" bitumen was commonly used as a sealant.

If the translation "cypress" is closer to being correct, then the bitumen slime was probably based on sap and rotting wood.

alexgb00 · #14 24th June 2002, 07:25 AM

Zadok,

Did you read the second book in the Bible, Exodus? Moses was born to a Hebrew slave woman and to save his life, Moses' mother put him in a basket. She caulked it with... PITCH. I'm almost certain she didn't drill for oil to caulk the basket. In other languages (Russian for instance) the same word is used for both your PITCH and TAR. English is so specific that it divides the two.

Another thing is the dictionary you use. A modern one will define pitch as a biproduct of oil, etc. But a 19th century one will have a different name for it. King James used PITCH in his translation, and he lived in, what? 16th century?

OK, that's all for now.

LouisBooth · #15 24th June 2002, 11:29 PM

since ya'll didn't want to look it up

03724 kopher {ko'-fer}

from 03722; TWOT - 1025b; n m

AV - ransom 8, satisfaction 2, bribe 2, camphire 2, pitch 1, sum of
money 1, village 1; 17

1) price of a life, ransom, bribe
2) asphalt, pitch (as a covering)
3) the henna plant, name of a plant (henna?)
4) village

see the "as a covering" translation? get it?

alexgb00 · #16 25th June 2002, 01:04 AM

Is that the Hebrew translation for "pitch," LouisBooth?

Alex

LouisBooth · #17 25th June 2002, 01:14 AM

Yup.

DrLao · #18 25th June 2002, 01:20 AM

Not exactly. That is the Hebrew word translated to "pitch" in Genesis 6:14. The word translated to "pitch" in Exodus 2:3 is "Zepheth."

KJV in both cases.

LouisBooth · #19 25th June 2002, 02:47 AM

"KJV in both cases."

I was addressing the verse in question. Didn't think I would have to do a word study on it *rolls eyes*

npetreley · #20 25th June 2002, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by LouisBooth
since ya'll didn't want to look it up

03724 kopher {ko'-fer}

from 03722; TWOT - 1025b; n m

AV - ransom 8, satisfaction 2, bribe 2, camphire 2, pitch 1, sum of
money 1, village 1; 17

1) price of a life, ransom, bribe
2) asphalt, pitch (as a covering)
3) the henna plant, name of a plant (henna?)
4) village

see the "as a covering" translation? get it?

As I said, it's bitumen, not tar. See Strong's Hebrew Bible Dictionary.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB37.htm

3724

kopher
ko'-fer

from 'kaphar' (3722); properly, a cover, i.e. (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively, a redemption-price:--bribe, camphire, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village.