Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Not necessarily. What I am discussing is, whether a human created mature, with fully developed cognitive functions, can truly claim his personality as his own. To me it seems, if Adam (and for that matter Eve as well) was created an adult, he must have been arbitrarily ascribed a personality by God.
Can you now see how this is linked to the general discussion about God creating with the appearance of age?
Imagine AI was really advanced, so advanced it could reproduce the way our own brain works, and humans could now engineer androids. Androids cannot grow, so when you, as a designer or AI developer, take the "brain" of an android you are expected to install a software that matches the outward appearance of the android and that would be always a "mature" android. Why?
Well, if you create a body that resembles a child you will have a problem, since the software you are installing has the ability to develop in the same way a human brain would develop. So after a while, you will end up with an extremely wise mind in a child's body, with a child's voice, yet the behaviour of an adult, which would be quite freaky.
So then, you need to install a software of a full grown adult for which further developments would not violate human expectations. To complicate it more, imagine the android works in public relations or as a nanny. You can't have someone stern, and rigid, pondering and wondering at the most (in human terms) banal things, like Data. You need someone who resembles a real human, a person, accurately.
(*Now, we define and redefine ourselves continuously based on past experience. This whole baggage of experience and knowledge that has also shaped our patterns of bahaviour defines our personality as adults and for that matter at any stage in our life. Only as infants are we in the unique position of learning everything from scratch.
Back to our android, if you want to give him a real personality, you have a few possibilities. Either you are "honest" about the whole thing and let his software develop by direct interaction with you in a virtual reality (like the Matrix), where it starts as a child, with the body of a child until he is grown up and then one "night" when it goes to sleep the next morning he wakes up in the real world with/without realising the transition, or, you can take a shortcut and install a software that has already all features of a personality with a preprogrammed "history" that has never taken place but was coded by another programme we call Random Personality Generator.
What would you do?
This is to put you in the position of God so you can better understand what I am talking about. Please do not come back and discuss technical details in my story, just assume all of the above was possible and now you are in the position of making that android into a real person. What is the manner you would carry out the task?
You are thinking as human who had a childhood.
See, God created the man for joy....and He also gave the man free will. The man had 'wisdom' in many things, because God did not create him as a dunce.
God told Him all things. The man knew God, and trusted God. But because the man had free will, he too was deceived. The man might have known more than Eve, but not a whole lot....because he probably divulged much to Eve.
They both knew God. IT would be like..today you were created...and you have the same mind, except you knew God too.
You cannot limit God's capabilities to what your standards are. You have finite knowledge...God has infinite. IF God chose, and He did choose...to give the man the capacity to have wisdom in understanding his life was 'as is' without question, then that is what was given.
Life experiences arent really necessary, when you are not living mortality. Angels are created too... they 'are' vs will be.
Babies are the continuance to life, not the essense of life. So the baby stage was surpassed. But imagine never being escorted out of Eden, and we all existed now in the Garden...life would be splendid. In fact, that is what heaven is. A never ending life filled with pure joy and love. {And who, besides the proud would care for more?}
Extractions from a past are not necessary, when a person is encompassed with that love.
But like Satan, who wanted to be God, he planted the 'pride' of wanting to be like God in humanity.
Adam did not need to be a baby to have understanding...it was part of his make up WHEN GOD created him.
After leaving the Garden, is when ppl began questioning God. Not before. Trust...and fulfilment is what they had.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
You care to prove that statement with scientific evidence or Biblical exegesis? I think I've already proven you wrong in the original thread this one spun off of.
Creating with the appearance of age has always struck me as the ultimate deception.In the case of Adam and Eve,you bring up some excellent points. Bravo!!How could he know language when it has to be learned from other people?
I think I've already proven your first statement wrong in the original thread this one came off of. And yes, kudos C'Mon Sense for this thread. I like your thinking outside the box!!!!
How about this. Maybe God gave Adam just the basic "programming" needed to stay alive and his personality evolved quickly over the first few days. Similar to a person who suffers brain damage and has to relearn who they are all over again.
God creating with the appearance of old before anything could grow old implies that he had knowledge of how things should be if they were young and simulate (imagine) from there until he arrived at the point where the Universe looked old enough.
And who says he didn't really simulate it while he was imagining it? Maybe this entire universe is just the incidental manifestation of God's thoughts.
You care to prove that statement with scientific evidence or Biblical exegesis? I think I've already proven you wrong in the original thread this one spun off of.
Can you prove that it is young? There have been a few posts in various threads commenting that what day was translated from in the genesis count also translates as a period of time, among a few other meanings other than what day means to us or a 24 hr period.
And there are probably a few people who understand redshift here better than me can explain how that works in conjunction with how fast light travels.
Do you know if they have the dual satellite telescope in sapce for finding out distances (among other things) more accurately?
Which other thread by the way?, probably missed your rebuttal and would like to see it.
Also that god creating something to look old when it shouldn't indicates deception which iseems to be quite ungodlike from how the bible Describes him.
Last edited by Blackmarch; 19th May 2005 at 12:59 PM.
Can you prove that it is young? There have been a few posts in various threads commenting that what day was translated from in the genesis count also translates as a period of time, among a few other meanings other than what day means to us or a 24 hr period.
And there are probably a few people who understand redshift here better than me can explain how that works in conjunction with how fast light travels.
Do you know if they have the dual satellite telescope in sapce for finding out distances (among other things) more accurately?
Which other thread by the way?, probably missed your rebuttal and would like to see it.
Also that god creating something to look old when it shouldn't indicates deception which iseems to be quite ungodlike from how the bible Describes him.
God creating with the appearance of old before anything could grow old implies that he had knowledge of how things should be if they were young and simulate (imagine) from there until he arrived at the point where the Universe looked old enough. To create a mature couple of humans he must have wired memories in their brain of things that never actually happened. I can't see how someone can have a personality yet have no memories of their life. Adam must have felt like someone awakening from a dream to an engineered reality and said: "I have so many memories of my life, none of which are true." (from The Matrix)
What are your thoughts? This is a divergent topic from the larger "God creating with the appearance of age."
It seems like you are trying to combine factors of memory from human experience in a strict order of chronology. To solve the technical difficulty you're describing--God could have just very well short-circuited Adam's memory to believe things only existed from that direct point in time, and the memories begin to form after that Biblical event. When we try to deal with things of that nature, the actual experience of God outweighs what people would normally percieve as negative.
Look at Adam this way.....
We know ppl who have severe amnesia still know their language...still know their personality..etc
GOD gave Adam everything...in 'knowledge' {although he had no past.}
Adam spoke because it was a part of him...
Adam had his own persona, because it was a part of his free will ~ package.
God Created humans....like the prize in a cracker jack box..He too wanted to see what free will would bring to Him.
In no way did God interfer in the person's personality, nor any structure thereof.
God wanted companionship...it would not have been true companionship if God deemed the man in a certain way...in which to behave.
MUCH like we cannot make babies behave a certain way in personality {Some are serious, some are clowns, etc}....but we anticipate the first moment we see them, and we get to know them, and we enjoy and find JOY in who they are that amazes us, and thrills us....THEY have their own personality, and Adam had his own.
He gave him the basic motor functions...language, thought, senses, movement and what not...but did not 'make' his personality.
That is what free will is...our personality, our choices, and our ability to love God..and please Him.
He could have well been like satan and refused to love God... but God took His chances...cos He wanted to.
Much like a parent chances having a child...and getting to know them.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
The funny thing is people are willing to embrace a ficitonal reality like Star Wars and even go as far to play dress-up and cheer on a complete work of fiction, yet deny thier real world. Why are people willing to embrace fictional works but not the account of creation? A great enigma in the least. That's why I think people who are engrossed in playing video games for hours on end form thier own realities..
I believe that to profess a reality apart from God is to form your own reality.
Look at Adam this way.....
We know ppl who have severe amnesia still know their language...still know their personality..etc
GOD gave Adam everything...in 'knowledge' {although he had no past.}
Adam spoke because it was a part of him...
Adam had his own persona, because it was a part of his free will ~ package.
God Created humans....like the prize in a cracker jack box..He too wanted to see what free will would bring to Him.
In no way did God interfer in the person's personality, nor any structure thereof.
God wanted companionship...it would not have been true companionship if God deemed the man in a certain way...in which to behave.
MUCH like we cannot make babies behave a certain way in personality {Some are serious, some are clowns, etc}....but we anticipate the first moment we see them, and we get to know them, and we enjoy and find JOY in who they are that amazes us, and thrills us....THEY have their own personality, and Adam had his own.
He gave him the basic motor functions...language, thought, senses, movement and what not...but did not 'make' his personality.
That is what free will is...our personality, our choices, and our ability to love God..and please Him.
He could have well been like satan and refused to love God... but God took His chances...cos He wanted to.
Much like a parent chances having a child...and getting to know them.
doesn't god know everything? he didn't have to "see" what free will world would be... he already knew... he knew when he created adam every thought he would ever have, evrey choice he would ever make...
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