Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Creationists have almost no understanding about the nature of the earth. Contrary to a literalist interpretation of the bible, the earth is NOT *flat, has no pillars, has no foundation, has no place on it where one may “see all nations” has no water under it, and there is no solid firmament surrounding the world that holds stars the moon or the sun. Heaven is also not “up”.
*See Bible verses:
Flat Earth-
Deuteronomy 13:7, Deuteronomy 28:64, 1 Samuel 2:10, Job 28:24, Isaiah 11:12, Matthew 24:31&32, Revelation 7:1, Matthew 4:8, Luke 4:5, Isa 40:21&22,
Jos 10:12 &13, 2Ki 20:8, Gen 1:14&15, Genesis 1:20, Psalm 24:2, Ex 20:4, Job 9:6,
Ps 136:6, Ps 148:4, 2 Pet 3:5, Chron 16:30, Psalms 93:1, Ex 40:28, Genesis 11:4, Job 38:22, Job 26:7
Heaven being up-
De 10:22, De 1:10, De 28:62, Jer 33:22, De 4:32, Ps 19:6, Job 11:8, Job 26:11,
Ge 7:19, Jer 49:36, Mt 24:31, Isa 13:10, Isa 34:4, Re 6:14, Da 8:10, Mt 24:29,
Re 6:13, Re 8:10, Re 9:1, Mr 13:25, 2Co 12:2
Lets start with some GEOLOGY. Geology is the study of the earth. It makes use of almost all other sciences and gives much to them in return. It is the basis of modern society. It is also the biggest supporter of Abiogenesis and Evolution.
The earth is very old, about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). How do we know this? Well lets look at the evidents (btw, I’m trying not to use cliched arguments).
-Radio carbon dating of wood, which is accurate as far back as 50,000 years, has identified many wooden objects to be many tens of thousands of years old
-It takes thousands of years of below freezing temperatures to build a 100 foot layer of permafrost. But large areas in the north are permanently frozen to depths of almost one mile! This took many tens of millennia to accomplish.
-The Los Alamos National Laboratory has developed a method of measuring the length of time that surface rocks have been exposed to cosmic rays. Cosmic rays stream into the atmosphere from all directions in outer space and break neutrons free when they collide with air molecules. When these neutrons hit rocks on the ground, they react with a tiny number of mineral atoms which create radioactive isotopes. At sea level, a few hundred modified atoms are created each year in a gram of quartz which is near the surface of the ground. New measuring techniques can detect very small numbers of these atoms and thus estimate the number of years that the rocks have been exposed. Scientists have found ages of about 8,500 years for glacial moraines in Newfoundland and 830,000 years for extinct volcanoes in Nevada.
-Some bristlecone pine trees in the White-Inyo mountain range of California date back beyond 2000 BCE. One, labelled "Methuselah" germinated in 2726 BCE. But their tree rings have been matched with those of dead trees; this shows that the latter germinated about 6000 BCE, which predates the year 4004 BCE by 2000 years.
-Geophysical surveys and borings show that the coral reef at Eniwetok atoll in the Pacific Ocean to have a thickness of up to 1380 meters. Even the most optimistic coral growth rates would require that the atoll be over 130,000 years of age.
-Reversals of the earth's magnetic pole are recorded in the Atlantic Ocean sea bottom for the past 80 million years
-Rate at which the continents are spreading apart from each other indicates that the Atlantic Ocean is about 200 million years old.
-Because of tides, the rotation of the earth is gradually slowing, by about 0.005 seconds per year. About 370 million years ago, each day would have been only 22.7 hours long! Studies of rugose coral fossils that were independently estimated to be 370 million years old revealed that when they were alive a day lasted about 22 hours. This relationship has been confirmed with other coral fossils. This is rather good evidence that the world was in existence a third of a billion years ago.
-The "nuclide" argument is one of the best proofs of an "old earth". Nuclides are forms of matter that are radioactive. Each nuclide decays into another form of matter at a certain rate. After an interval of time equal to its half-life, only half of the original material is left. Scientists have found that:
o Every nuclide with a half-life over 80 million years can be found naturally occurring on earth
o All Nuclides with a half-life under 80 million years do not exist naturally
The only logical explanation for these observations is that the world formed billions of years ago. There are enough long-lived nuclides still around to be still detectable. The short-lived nuclides have long since decayed and disappeared. The only exceptions to the latter are short lived nuclides which are being continuously generated by the decay of long-lived nuclides.
These and many others are all pointing in one direction, an old earth!
There is another problem Creationists must address. The fact that the crust of the earth contains ancient geographies, whole ecosystems fossilized, evidence of surface existence below the surface (i.e. cave systems with surface identities, footprints, rain drops, forests both layered and not layered, ecologies where different weather zones exist stacked atop one another, glaciation, tar pits and lakebeds, meteor craters below the surface, etc)…
There are ways to show relative and absolute ages of rocks and fossils (taken from my fossil FAQ)-
Of course Radiometric dating is right up their too… Superposition of sedimentary rocks indicates their releative ages. In undisturbed sections, younger rocks overlie older. Stratigraphic Correlation of strata in one place with those of the same age, deposited at the same period of time in another place, is fundamental in the interpritation of geologic history. Fossils themselves are important in correlation of sedimentary rocks. The absolute age of rocks is accurately determined by the use of radioisotope dating. It is true that the relative ages of strata were determined prior to the development of radiometric dating, but radiometric dating has confirmed these relative dates to be correct. (i.e. index fossils) Rock Facies, the sum total of the characteristics of a rock's despositional envirionment, are independant of geological time. An awarness of them, however, is important in correlation.
(1)Lithological Correlation uses the similarity of minerology, sorting, structure, bedding, sequence, and other similar features as indications of similar ages of rocks. Limited use though... Standard Geologic Column which has been built up by combining rock sequences from different areas, can be matched with a time scale based on measured absolute ages of rocks.
(1)Geophysical Correlation makes use of similarity of physical rock properties as an indication of similar age. limited use though... Rock Systems in the geologic column are major divisions of rocks deposited during a particular period of geologic time.
(1)Lithographical Correlation is of limited value, since rocks of different lithology often are deposited at the same time in an adjacent area. Geophysical Correlation is limited by the same factors of Lithographical Correlation.
*The accuracy of the empirical basis of the "geologic column" is daily re-confirmed by its use in the petroleum industry to actually produce tangible results. Since the existence of a given layer in the geologic column depends on a location being submerged during the corresponding time period, and the layer not subsequently being eroded away, it is not surprising that any given location would have only a limited number of layers. Thus, the the column as a whole is constructed from data from many locations. Nevertheless, there are locations which contain layers representative of all major periods in the last 500 million years. Furthermore, radiodating confirms the validity of the column.
Any one of these examples eliminates the possibility of an earth that is only 10,000 years old, beyond reasonable doubt. Taken together, they are even more convincing.
Heck, geology just flat out ruins Creationism.
Oh, and by the by. Almost the ENTIRE geologic column can be viewed in multiple places in the world: ( Yeah, I took it from Talkorigins, so sue me.)
The Ghadames Basin in Libya
The Beni Mellal Basin in Morrocco
The Tunisian Basin in Tunisia
The Oman Interior Basin in Oman
The Western Desert Basin in Egypt
The Adana Basin in Turkey
The Iskenderun Basin in Turkey
The Moesian Platform in Bulgaria
The Carpathian Basin in Poland
The Baltic Basin in the USSR
The Yeniseiy-Khatanga Basin in the USSR
The Farah Basin in Afghanistan
The Helmand Basin in Afghanistan
The Yazd-Kerman-Tabas Basin in Iran
The Manhai-Subei Basin in China
The Jiuxi Basin China
The Tung t'in - Yuan Shui Basin China
The Tarim Basin China
The Szechwan Basin China
The Yukon-Porcupine Province Alaska
The Williston Basin in North Dakota
The Tampico Embayment Mexico
The Bogata Basin Colombia
The Bonaparte Basin, Australia
The Beaufort Sea Basin/McKenzie River Delta
__________________ "Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
(Ashley Montague)
Know Evidence, Know Belief
NO EVIDENCE, NO BELIEF!!!
Geology research also destroyed the notion of there ever having been a global flood. For me, this was the final nail in the coffin for Christianity - Noah's Flood never happened.
Well, Noah's whole world (as far as he knew it) could have flooded. If he never ventured more than 20km from home, the world as he knew it could have been completely covered by water.
And people in flood areas have been known to put their livestock on rafts.
__________________ ~~RvFvS~~ Evolution: The change of properties of populations of organisms over time. Microevolution: Evolution apparent within species. Macroevolution: Evolution apparent between species.
The accuracy of science cannot be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.
Well, Noah's whole world (as far as he knew it) could have flooded. If he never ventured more than 20km from home, the world as he knew it could have been completely covered by water.
Then why bother collecting all the animals? Why bother building an ark at all? God could've just told him to head for the hills!
Gen: 6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
There you have it. He pitched the ark with PITCH.
Pitch is-
Definition: A residual petroleum product (pitch precursor) which is used in the manufacture of certain carbon fibers. While not as strong as low-modulus PAN fibers, they are processible to high moduli and are useful for some stiffness-critical applications.
TAR is-
Definition: Brown or black bituminous material, liquid or semisolid in consistency, in which the constituents are obtained as condensates in the destructive distillation of coal, petroleum, oil/ shale, wood, or other organic materials, and which yields substantial quantities of pitch.
So even the scripture itself disproves Young-Earth Creationism...
__________________ "Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
(Ashley Montague)
Know Evidence, Know Belief
NO EVIDENCE, NO BELIEF!!!
Gen: 6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
There you have it. He pitched the ark with PITCH.
Pitch is-
Definition: A residual petroleum product (pitch precursor) which is used in the manufacture of certain carbon fibers. While not as strong as low-modulus PAN fibers, they are processible to high moduli and are useful for some stiffness-critical applications.
TAR is-
Definition: Brown or black bituminous material, liquid or semisolid in consistency, in which the constituents are obtained as condensates in the destructive distillation of coal, petroleum, oil/ shale, wood, or other organic materials, and which yields substantial quantities of pitch.
So even the scripture itself disproves Young-Earth Creationism...
I am not sure that I understand what you are getting at here. And to be fair you really should not be using modern dictionary definitions of words but rather you need to figuring out what the equivalent word in ancient Hebrew meant in context.
I must take issue with the constant assertion that creation and evolution are mutually exclusive ideas. Those on both sides are wrong in excluding the other. Just because a being changes over time does not preclude the idea that it may have been created or that the changes could be directed in some way. Unfortunately for us all, there is NO way to prove that one way or the other. Your particular worldview will dictate what you wish to accept.
To Noah's flood, Genesis 1-11 are likely the final writing of a long-held oral history. Oral histories are sparse on details and include hyperbole that the people of the culture would understand:
40 days and 40 nights
40 of anything in ancient Hebrew culture meant "a lot". If one wishes, the text could read, "It rained for a long time." The final point is, it is a story told generation after generation about the beginning time of the earth. It should not be taken literally.
An analogy concerning the creation account:
Explain to a three-year old the inner workings of a combustion engine in a way that the three-year old can explain the engine to others. That is what God had to do with people in explaining the creation. Could you imagine God explaining physics to neolithic man??
Linear Mode
