Ethnic Israel and the church

From Revelation chapter 4 to Revelation chapter 20 we find...

Israel is only mentioned one time in one verse...

Rev 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Even if we bend this one reference to include all references of the 144K as well; then we only add twelve more verses (Revelation 7:3-8 and Revelation 14:1-5) that mention the 144K found in the entire book.

Your claim that "God's dealings with Isreal dominate the book of Revelation from about chpater four to 20"

...is completely unfounded when the book of Revelation is examined between chapters 4-20.

• Revelation 4-20 contains 285 verses....
• Israel is mentioned once
• the 144K are mentioned in only 12 times.

That's 272 verses that don't mention Israel or the 144K....looks like you have misplaced Israel in the same way you seemed to have misplaced the church throughout the NT as well.

Who do you find in Revelation chapters 4-20?

Let's let scripture tell us some of the people (Christ's Redeemed) we find there...

• 5:9 "for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation"
  
  
• 6:11 "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed"
  
  
• 7:9 " a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people"
  
  
• 7:14 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "
  
  
• 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God"
  
  
• 9:4 "those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads"
  
  
• 11:13 "and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. "
  
  
• 11:18 "and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great"
  
  
• 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony"
  
  
• 12:17 "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. "
  
  
• 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints"
  
  
• 13:8 "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb "
  
  
• 13:10 "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "
  
  
• 14:4 "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men"
  
  
• 14:5 "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
  
  
• 14:6 "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"
  
  
• 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him"
  
  
• 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
  
  
• 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth"
  
  
• 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
  
• 15:2
  
• 17:6 "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus"
  
  
• 17:8 "they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world"
  
  
• 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. "
  
  
• 19:6 "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."
  
  
• 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"
  
  
• 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ"
  
  
• 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books"
  
  

Well, Revelation does say they are Israelites, doesn't it, so we can't dispute that. I was just noticing the differences in this census compared to that of the OT.

I'm sure if we turn to additional scripture from the NT, we would have an even clearer picture of this group of Israelites where the priests are now so prominent and that are now led by the Tribe of Judah.

They are the 'all Israel' of Rom 11.

hindsey wrote:

Joshua 21:43,45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
2 Corinthians 1:19 "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him"

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

hindsey wrote:

No one believes anyone has been replaced. All human beings are sinners, and all human beings are either born again and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and saved by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the atonement of their sins; or they are not. Those who are, belong to Christ and noone will cast them out....those who do not belong to Christ will be broken off and cast into the Fire.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "

Matthew 9:23 "And Jesus said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. "

I John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
hindsey wrote:

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. "

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Galatians3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Ephesians 3:21, 4:4 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Corinthians12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

2 Corinthians5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ"

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Hebrews 2:10, 10:10, 13 "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Ok, I am new to this subject, but it seems that lately it comes up a bit... It seems to me that there are in fact differences between God's dealing with the national Jews and with those that have born-again after the resurrection of Christ. So, I have questions:

#1) for DISPENSATIONALISTS: Other than the promise of the land of Palestine, what promises are there in the Old Testament given to Israel that the Church does not take part of.


Thanks.

Ok, I am new to this subject, but it seems that lately it comes up a bit... It seems to me that there are in fact differences between God's dealing with the national Jews and with those that have born-again after the resurrection of Christ. So, I have questions:


#3) Can somebody give me a clear definition of what implications there are by allowing OT Saints to be called part of the "Church"?

Thanks.

Your Scripture reference has no bearing on the ultimate fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Though choosing to walk in disobedience to the Lord does cause the loss of covenant blessing it never could cause its cancelation because its fulfillment depends on God alone. It makes little difference if the land was possessed at one time or not, as the Lord gave it as an everlasting possession.

"For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever" (Gen. 13:15).

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant,..." (Gen. 17:7).

"Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; and hath confirmed the same to Jacob for law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant" (1 Chron. 16:16-17, Ps. 105:9-10).

Scripture clearly declares the nature of the covenant.

Though Israel is not a believing nation today, once the Deliverer comes out of Sion, all Israel shall be saved (Rom. 11:26) and possess all that God has promised forever.

In Christ,
Tracey

There is no corporate salvation of the soul from sin without acceptance, obedience, and following of Jesus Christ. Noone from either OT or NT times will be cleansed of sin without individual faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Good Eb! There is a difference, I am not sure why, but we can agree that these are of ethnic Israel.