That rings of pragmatism, the question isn't over how many people join a church, but rather was God glorified through the sharing of the gospel.
That is why I was careful to use the term "committed Christian". If someone truly accepts Christ, they will seek ways to grow in their knowledge of him by sharing the gospel with others. Since Jesus's time, the primary place to do this is with other believers; that is, in a church. It is not about numbers, but about embracing an environment where you can grow in your faith.
Every ministry must measure its effectiveness- otherwise, there is no way of determining whether it is working or not. Ray Comfort speaks of true and false conversions- the latter being where a person makes a profession of faith, but continues in a sin-filled life style. This is much less likely to happen if a new Christian joins a church, and learns more about living a Godly life.
I am sure there are some who grow in their knowledge of Jesus through their own personal study, but most Christians grow in their faith and glorify God by sharing their faith with other Christians in a church. That is why church attendance is such a good measure of effectiveness and commitment to your faith.
__________________ John 6:33: "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
What you speak of is worldly.
The World Measures things as to effectiveness by numbers, statistics, etc....
The question is not if it is effective, the question is, is it biblical. The Law gives knowledge of Sin (How else would you prescribe we show someone what is sin.)
Without knowledge of sin you come to the cross for reasons other than salvation.
If you do not agree, then ask yourself this question:
Why do you believe? Why did you come to the cross? Salvation from/for what? In order to saved you must be in trouble, what are you saved from?
The thing is, there is only one reason to come to the cross. Any other reason causes one to be doomed for eternity.
I have seen the Church FILL UP with people because they were having a discussion on "Your best you NOW"... People loved hearing how to better improve their relationships, jobs, family, etc.... These are all worldly issues, What happens to any of these folks when they die if they have not repented of their sins, and put their faith and trust in Jesus (Who paid the fine for their sins)....
If you judge effectives, then how do you deal with Jesus on the cross, Bruised for our inequity, Seems to me he wasn't very effective, to die. Or how about the early apostles who were martyred for their faith, how effective is that?...
How would you handle Noah, who for about 100 years warned the residents in the area he lived of the wrath to come, yet the only ones who were saved were his family (that doesn't seem very effective).
We are to warn... Go....
Whether someone comes or not is between them and God. Not between Man and man. Yet it seems we are more interested in our man to man relationships and pleasing those around us than pleasing God.
__________________ "The enemy is behind us. The enemy is in front of us. The enemy is to the right and the left of us. They can't get away this time!" General Douglas Mc Arthur
The Bible is filled with references that speak to the effectiveness of Jesus's ministry. For example, here is the account of Jesus preaching at Tabgha on the Sea of Galilee.
Mathew 14:
13When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
15As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."
16Jesus replied, "They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat."
17"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered.
18"Bring them here to me," he said. 19And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
The Bible also makes many references to the growth of the church; for example, here is a passage from Acts 2:
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
The Fellowship of the Believers
42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
If we are to be effective at spreading the Gospel, we need to be aware of what works, and what doesn't. This is not at all worldly; quite the contrary, as the passages above show, it is Biblical.
So again, I ask: are The Way of the Master and Living Waters ministries http://www.christianforums.com/t5310...-ministry.html effective, and do they follow the ethical and financial guidelines expected of Christian organizations?
__________________ John 6:33: "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
As a Church family, we support many ministries. But is it not natural for anyone that contributes to a Christian organization to want to know where their contributions go, and how effective they are? What is worldly about that? I would say you have an obligation to God to make sure that your contributions are used effectively and to His glory.
I have not yet contributed to Christian Forums- but will eventually do so because I think it is a very effective ministry. As a matter of fact, I think it is one of the most powerful ways to spread the Good News since the advent of radio broadcasting.
__________________ John 6:33: "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
This is ok for converting people without a religion i guess, but not someone who already has a religion. A lot of godless people will shrug this off, so i might suggest being a little less ovoius, nosy, and to handle it slower. Witnessing is best done with baby steps i think.
The Way of The Master has many videos available on YouTube for free to watch. I typed in a few episodes form the way of the master website that i really wanted to see, and they were on YouTube for free. To the skeptics on here, I recommend watching several episodes to see it in action. It seems so confrontational and you can picture things in your head that people could say that might make it tough BUT after watching many episodes, you become to see just how really effective it is. Its the way Jesus did it afterall guys.. They have different episodes towards different types of lost people from homosexuals, atheists, etc.
For some reason I have a hard time believing that the Apostle Paul would recommend this type of evangelism.
The Law was given to the Jews and not the Gentiles. Romans 5:13 KJV says: "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." So, if God didn't give us the Law how can He hold our sins against us.
We've got to make everyone understand that 'our' sins aren't what is sending us to hell, it's Adam's sin that has condemned us regardless if we have ever committed a sin or not (Romans 5:14).
The only way to escape the death sentence is by being in Christ (in God's family line). This is the message Paul preached, and it is the message we should be preaching.
Blessings
Alan
Last edited by Mister_Al; 9th January 2008 at 06:21 AM.
Reason: spelling
So you are saying it is OK to Lie, Steal, Blaspheme, Idoly worship, Covet, Commit Adultery (lust), Murder (hate), disobey Parents, etc....
And by one mans Rebelion did Sin enter the world and from Jesus a way out. Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sinentered the world through oneman, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
For Paul said I did Not know sin BUT BY THE LAW.
You are not given the death sentence for another mans crime... (makes no sense) however You have broken the law and that is where the guilty sentence is given.
But if we preach the only way to escape the death sentence is to be in christ (what does that mean)... what is death? you mean our initial death?... And why must I die?... all these things are folly to them without presenting God's Law... Then they will understand why the death sentence is upon them and all and grasp what Christ Jesus died for THEIR sins (and not just Adam's)
__________________ "The enemy is behind us. The enemy is in front of us. The enemy is to the right and the left of us. They can't get away this time!" General Douglas Mc Arthur
So you are saying it is OK to Lie, Steal, Blaspheme, Idoly worship, Covet, Commit Adultery (lust), Murder (hate), disobey Parents, etc....
And by one mans Rebelion did Sin enter the world and from Jesus a way out. Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sinentered the world through oneman, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
For Paul said I did Not know sin BUT BY THE LAW.
You are not given the death sentence for another mans crime... (makes no sense) however You have broken the law and that is where the guilty sentence is given.
But if we preach the only way to escape the death sentence is to be in christ (what does that mean)... what is death? you mean our initial death?... And why must I die?... all these things are folly to them without presenting God's Law... Then they will understand why the death sentence is upon them and all and grasp what Christ Jesus died for THEIR sins (and not just Adam's)
I'm saying that Adam's (and Eve's) sin is what condemned the human race and not the peoples individual sins. What could you say to a person that had never committed a sin? How will you preach the Law to them? They will still die and go to hell without being born again because of Adam's sin.
Romans 5:14 (New International Version):
14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Blessings,
Alan
Last edited by Mister_Al; 9th January 2008 at 04:43 PM.
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