In what ways are you a liberal Christian ?

Bonhoffer · #1 23rd April 2004, 11:23 AM

Hi guys. Sometimes its complicated to define exactly what a 'liberal' Christian is.

Is it where you stand theologically, politically, worship style or biblically?

I personally get confused on whether to call myself a Liberal Christian or not.

This is because I am liberal with some things, but orthodox with others.

For example in regards to Scripture I am an orthodox fundamentalist. i.e literal 6 day creation, non-Christians go to hell, homosexual acts are a sin.

Eccelesastically (church politics) I am fairly conservative. i.e male elders only, no active gays in leadership.

BUT politically I am very liberal. i.e seperation of church and state, pro-choice, (unless it can be legally and scientifically proved that early abortion is murder) civil unions for gays, gender equality

I would also say I am liberal in my attitude to others regarding my faith
i.e I don't shove in down unbeleivers throats and concentrate more on Gods love than Gods wrath (although I never deny Gods wrath/ hell etc....)

And worship style I'm into the funky happy clappy scene

artybloke · #2 23rd April 2004, 11:50 AM

I would have gone for theologically, but I'm not sure about universalist (I don't mind gay sex as long as I don't have to do it

)

I'm not terribly liberal in worship though. Smells and bells, or Quaker worship, that's for me.

wonder111 · #3 23rd April 2004, 12:00 PM

for me, I would like to say it's the attitude, or at least that's what I strive for. I also like to keep an open-mind. I never like to stick to a definite answer, because I can always be wrong

and I like worship style to be more sacred and traditional (quiet

)

Mr. Fields · #4 23rd April 2004, 03:40 PM

I stopped thinking that using contemporary worship music was "liberal" a long time ago...

Anyway...

I used to be a staunchly conservative believer. Life experiences have a way of changing your views on things...

1. Formerly a believer that the KJV was "the only" true word of God, I now believe that versions such as the KJV are tools that have been used to confuse and deceive the vast majority of people who believe in traditional Christianity.

2. I now believe that souls do not go directly to heaven or hell, they are most likely in a state of "sleep" until resurrection and judgement.

3. I believe that hell is a concept created by man as a political tool to control the masses. I believe that if God sent any man to burn and be tortured for an eternity in hell, his judgement would far exceed his grace, love, forgiveness and compassion.

4. I believe we were created for a much higher purpose than to sing some songs in heaven for eternity. I believe this life is a training and testing ground, a sort of "boot camp" to prepare us for a much greater purpose.

5. I believe that as God is the Father, and Jesus is the Son, the Holy Spirit is Mother.

Hmmm... There's more but I'll leave it at that for now.

And no, I don't wish to debate any of my beliefs within this thread.

Arikereba · #5 23rd April 2004, 04:31 PM

All of the above but to a moderate degree--in every aspect but the political, where I think I'm getting more radical.

Politically: rather libertarian on the social side of things, to the extent of leaning towards drug legalization. Rather socialist on the economic side; I'm sceptical of the ability of government to regulate commerce and industry in an effective way, but I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with the engines of consumption and production, "getting and spending we lay waste to our powers," as Wordsworth said. Tend to side with the democrats on most issues.

Biblically: the Bible is an accurate record of God's dealings with man and should be taken seriously. However, it is not the literal dictation of God. There are parts that show human bias and are affected by human cultural constructions.

Theologically: I think gay sex is probably OK. I also think that sex should stay within the bounds of, at the very least, committed and quasi-marital relationships. I can't call myself a complete universalist because I believe it's possible that some people will choose to turn from the love of God forever. However, I don't think that this applies to all people who never become Christians, or even all the ones who are staunch atheists. I also have some more "conservative" beliefs like Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Church politics: Gay ministers, fine. Women ministers, fine. I have a problem with ministers in mainstream Christian denominations advancing beliefs that I feel are at odds with mainstream Christianity (which is sometimes the sense I get in regards to John Shelby Spong, for example; but I might well be wrong).

Attitude: It SHOULD all be about love, love, unconditional love. I am not nearly as good as I should be at showing love to people.

Worship style: I say that Powerpoint is a tool of the devil. I'm joking. Sort of.

Mr. Fields · #6 23rd April 2004, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Arikereba

I say that Powerpoint is a tool of the devil.

Some would say all MS products are of the devil.

jessedance · #7 24th April 2004, 09:10 AM

I don't believe that abortion is murder. I believe it is wrong , but i do not believe you are killing a human. i don't believe you get your human spirit, which is who you really are until you are born. prior to that time, when you are a fetus , you are just a body and a soul without a human spirit. but like i said, i think its wrong, just not murder, however i figure its ok for unsaved to have abortions cause most ofthier children are gonna grow up to be unsaved anyway, and burn in hell for ever.

PastorFreud · #8 24th April 2004, 05:42 PM

Hmmm. I am, perhaps, your opposite, Bonhoffer. I believe all politics are demonic and evil, so I am not liberal or conservative politically. Of course, with a gun to my head and only two options I will choose the lesser of two evils, usually the liberal.

Theologically I am liberal, and that stems from biblical liberalism (as I define it, not Outspoken, btw.) I cannot condemn what God does not condemn, and I see that God typically condemns motivations and attitutudes, which I cannot personally judge.

When it comes to worhip, I am not a fan of happy clappy. I come closer to smells and bells (loved that, cracked me up, Artybloke). But then I don't think worship is just what happens on Sunday. I suppose I am truly liberal by believing that acts of service are worship. James and I agree that taking care of widows and orphans is an act of worship. I am not currently helping many widows, but I do love and serve six orphans. For me, that is worship and I tithe directly toward the welfare of these kids.

Back on politics a minute. I believe abortion is wrong. I would never have one or encourage it. But at the same time I believe it is wrong to force this stand on people via political power. The proper way, IMO, to address this is through persuasion and love. Unfortunately, not enough Christians are involved in actually caring for those involved in unwanted pregnancy. Sure, they line up to adopt the baby, especially if it a white, male child. The line for cocaine addicted baby girls of color is considerably shorter. But the assistance to mothers with unwanted pregnancies is even rarer. It exists, but is not as widespread as the groups with photos of dead fetuses blockading the abortion clinic. I have even been witness to some interchanges between these picketers and the women coming in. It is enough to make me want to deconvert.

PastorFreud · #9 24th April 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by jessedance

I don't believe that abortion is murder. I believe it is wrong , but i do not believe you are killing a human. i don't believe you get your human spirit, which is who you really are until you are born. prior to that time, when you are a fetus , you are just a body and a soul without a human spirit. but like i said, i think its wrong, just not murder, however i figure its ok for unsaved to have abortions cause most ofthier children are gonna grow up to be unsaved anyway, and burn in hell for ever.

You are joking, right? Or do you truly value the life of the "unsaved" less than that of a "saved" person?

Biarien · #10 24th April 2004, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by PastorFreud

Hmmm. I am, perhaps, your opposite, Bonhoffer. I believe all politics are demonic and evil, so I am not liberal or conservative politically. Of course, with a gun to my head and only two options I will choose the lesser of two evils, usually the liberal.

Theologically I am liberal, and that stems from biblical liberalism (as I define it, not Outspoken, btw.) I cannot condemn what God does not condemn, and I see that God typically condemns motivations and attitutudes, which I cannot personally judge.

When it comes to worhip, I am not a fan of happy clappy. I come closer to smells and bells (loved that, cracked me up, Artybloke). But then I don't think worship is just what happens on Sunday. I suppose I am truly liberal by believing that acts of service are worship. James and I agree that taking care of widows and orphans is an act of worship. I am not currently helping many widows, but I do love and serve six orphans. For me, that is worship and I tithe directly toward the welfare of these kids.

Back on politics a minute. I believe abortion is wrong. I would never have one or encourage it. But at the same time I believe it is wrong to force this stand on people via political power. The proper way, IMO, to address this is through persuasion and love. Unfortunately, not enough Christians are involved in actually caring for those involved in unwanted pregnancy. Sure, they line up to adopt the baby, especially if it a white, male child. The line for cocaine addicted baby girls of color is considerably shorter. But the assistance to mothers with unwanted pregnancies is even rarer. It exists, but is not as widespread as the groups with photos of dead fetuses blockading the abortion clinic. I have even been witness to some interchanges between these picketers and the women coming in. It is enough to make me want to deconvert.

I'm not sure I agree with the first two points (could you explain what 'Biblical liberalism' entails more specifically?) but the rest of the post is great.

And I don't think believing acts of service are a style of worship is liberal at all.