It seems that many so-called "Orthodox" do nothing but act like Pharisees to affirm their Antiochian terminology, without even realizing that they are Antiochians in terminology.
The temporary split between Cyril and John showed what can happen when both sides misunderstand one another. With confusion, the emperor had to punish them both. Here is an example where imperial politics never took sides.
The permanent split between Dioscorus and Leo resulted in Marcian and Theodoret supporting the Chalcedonian cause. Putting St. Dioscorus under house arrest, the council (and not all the bishops of the council) found it fitting to depose St. Dioscorus after an unexplained triple summons.
The faith of "one Incarnate nature" is the faith that was upheld by St. Cyril. John of Antioch confesses "of two natures" or "from two natures." Nestorius confessed "in two natures."
Now let's look at later history. Dioscorus confesses "one Nature" and later in Chalcedon argued to accept "of two natures." Eutyches confessed "one nature" but in a heretical manner. Flavian and Leo confessed "in two natures," a new terminology that was neither confessed by John nor Cyril. Yet, its terminology is still Antiochian, specifically fanatic Antiochian, or Nestorian.
Thus, here's where the confusion started. Flavian knowing exactly that Eutyches believes in a confusion "one nature" decided to go for a strict "in two natures." Dioscorus receiving a word from Eutyches that the heresy of Nestorius has been revived, while not knowing of Eutyches' shortcomings, had to defend the Cyrillian terminology against "supposed" Nestorians. The Council of Chalcedon, except the Nestorians who were "hailed" there, namely Theodoret and Ibas, had to defend a strict Antiochian theology against a supposed "Eutychian."
The following websites I offer as a defense on behalf of the OO's:
I believe this is enough for now. Notice, I do not condemn the Byzantines of Nestorianism, but I present objective facts as they were. The fact of the matter is that both the Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian fathers were either ignorant or misunderstanding.
God bless.
Last edited by minasoliman; 18th April 2005 at 08:38 PM.
I really start to get frustrated when these people are telling me what I believe.
And I'm starting to think one or two of them are posting these statements such as "Monophysite Pope Shenouda III" on a forum where we cannot debate, just to get us worked up.
I'm really proud of your persistance, Mina.
God Bless you.
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In the Armenian Liturgy the deacons proclaim, " Yev yevus khaghaghootyamp uzDer aghachestook" which means - " In peace let us beseech the Lord ". So don't get frustrated about peoples opinions. Its not the first time Churches have been misinterpreted its not the last. Stand firm in the Faith of our ancestors, and remember that Salvation comes from Grace.
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Լո'յս ճշմարիտ Քրիստոս, արժանաւորեա' զհոգի իմ` ուրախութեամբ տեսանել զլոյս փառաց քոց ի կոչման աւուրն եւ հանգչել յուսով բարեաց յօթեվանս արդարոց,մինչեւ յօր մեծի գալստեան քո, ողորմեա' քո արարածոց եւ ինձ` բազմամեղիս:
It is a sad, sad division. I read the other day about fratricide that EO have commited on OO and I am so unhappy because of this.
I am new to the faith and especialy to the Theology and History behind the Ecumenical councils but reading whatever I could find on the internet about this it amazes me how stupid and narrow minded people can be.
I was so touched by sacrifice of the Coptic Christians that is continuing to these days. Moved by Armenian History, it is the oldest Christian state. So impressed by steadfast keeping of the faith by all other Orthodox Churches of three Ecumenical Councils.
It is a sad, sad division. I read the other day about fratricide that EO have commited on OO and I am so unhappy because of this.
I am new to the faith and especialy to the Theology and History behind the Ecumenical councils but reading whatever I could find on the internet about this it amazes me how stupid and narrow minded people can be.
I was so touched by sacrifice of the Coptic Christians that is continuing to these days. Moved by Armenian History, it is the oldest Christian state. So impressed by steadfast keeping of the faith by all other Orthodox Churches of three Ecumenical Councils.
There is so much power. So much beauty.
God bless you all...
Forgive the sinns of the fathers, to their sons.
in ICXC
Stefan+
Lord have mercy.
Thank you for your post, may we all try to do God's Will.
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Լո'յս ճշմարիտ Քրիստոս, արժանաւորեա' զհոգի իմ` ուրախութեամբ տեսանել զլոյս փառաց քոց ի կոչման աւուրն եւ հանգչել յուսով բարեաց յօթեվանս արդարոց,մինչեւ յօր մեծի գալստեան քո, ողորմեա' քո արարածոց եւ ինձ` բազմամեղիս:
Thank you Mina for taking the time to post this thread. Its incredibly hurtful to know that some Eastern Orthodox are mis-representing our beliefs in a public forum and we are not even allowed to clarify this mis-representation. I was very hurt by the actions that was taken when they deleted my post when I tried to clarify the Coptic Orthodox beliefs. When we dont get the chance to clarify our position in a public forum, what this means is that not only are they allowing this incorrect information to spread, but for prejudices to grow unchecked against the Coptic Orthodox.
I want to stress what a great love I have for my Easter Orthodox brothers and Sisters, but that I am still trying to recover from the really hurtful comments that was posted in the Eastern Orthodox Forum calling the Oriental Orthodox as "Heretical" and have "pagan practices".
I would like to take this chance to clarify our position and hope to get the chance to do it.
Some Eastern Orthodox believe that the Coptic Orthodox Church are Monophysites and this is incorrect. The doctrine of Monophysites believe that “Jesus was not human, but exclusively divine, and God himself, therefore he could not have died.” And this doctrine is incorrect.
The book called the nature of Christ by His Holiness Pope Shenouda the third, he makes it clear what we believe and I would like to post an extract:
“The Divine nature (God the Word) was united with the human nature which He took of the Virgin Mary by the action of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit purified and sanctified the Virgin’s womb so that the Child to whom she gave birth would inherit nothing of the original sin; the flesh formed of her blood was united with the Only-Begotten Son. This Unity took place from the first moment of the Holy Pregnancy in the Virgin’s womb. As a result of the unity of both natures-the Divine and the human-inside the Virgin’s womb, one nature was formed out of both: "The One Nature of God the Incarnate Logos" as St. Cyril called it.”
“……the point of discussion was St. Cyril’s expression "One Nature of God the Incarnate Logos" (Mia Physis Tou Theou Logou Sesarkwmene).
The expression "One Nature" does not indicate the Divine nature alone nor the human nature alone, but it indicates the unity of both natures into One Nature which is "The Nature of the Incarnate Logos". The same applies when we speak about our human nature which comprises two united natures: the soul and the body. Thus, man’s nature is not the soul alone nor the body alone, but their union in one nature called human nature. We will discuss this point in detail later on. St. Cyril the Great taught us not to talk about two natures after their unity.
So we can say that the Divine nature united hypostatically with the human nature within the Virgin’s womb, but after this unity we do not ever speak again about two natures of Christ. In fact, the expression "two natures" implies in itself division or separation, and although those who believe in "the two natures" admit unity, the tone of separation was obvious in the Council of Chalcedon - a matter which prompted us to reject the Council and caused the exile of St. Dioscorus of Alexandria.”
That is why we call ourselves Miaphysite from the words of St Cyril that says "One Nature of God the Incarnate Logos" (Mia Physis Tou Theou Logou Sesarkwmene).
This One nature refers to the Devine and the Human nature that coexists together. Now in regards to tattoing, the Coptic Orthodox Church discourages anyone from getting a tattoo that is not a cross. So if you went to get a tattoo of a rose, that is considered placing unneccesary mark on the temple of God, our body. But if you are placing a cross on your hand, its not only proclaiming your faith, but the sign of the cross is holy and can only bring blessing to your body. Its the same as wearing a cross, why do people wear the necklace of the Cross??? Even more, why look down on the Coptics who tattoo a cross, yet many people wear earing in their ears and its ok?
I believe its an unfair remark to say that the Coptic Orthodox is "Heretical" when the Coptic Orthodox Church has contributed so much to the Orthodox faith. For example, the Creed, the Easter date calculations, iconography, Monastacism and many more.
It is also unfair, to label Coptic Orthodox Church with pagan practices in regards of tattoing of the cross without first asking a coptic person why it is done.
I’ve posted this for the sake of clarification of the doctrines in Coptic Orthodox Church. And again I want to stress, how much the Eastern Orthodox are our much loved brothers and sisters in Christ. May God have mercy on us all and have mercy on me a sinner.
If you read erini's post above yours it gives a great explaination, but I'll give another brief one here.
So basically, we all know that Jesus is God--he is a divine being, right?
We also know that Jesus came down to earth and was human. He had human needs, desires, emotions--all that.
So Jesus was fully Divine and fully human. And these are both natures--a divine nature and a human nature.
As Coptic Orthodox Christians, we believe that his Human nature and his Divine nature are combined into one being. So just as I am one person, there are two parts of me. I have a body and I have a soul, and together they make me--Elizabeth. It's the same way with Jesus, he has his divinity and his humanity to make one being. This belief that Jesus Christ is one combined nature is called Miaphysite, and that is what we are.
Now, as for Monophysites, it originated in the 5th century when a man named Euchytes started to teach that Jesus Christ's humanity dissolved in his Divinity and he was only divine--therefore having only one nature. Mono=one and therefore monophysite. Now clearly this is wrong. We all know that it is a historical fact that Jesus Christ was a living, breathing human being. During this time, we were wrongly accused of being Monophysites and following this man's teachings, when in fact we excommunicated him from the church.
Soooooo, to sum it up:
1) We believe Christ has one combined nature. He is fully human and fully divine.
2) This believe is called Miaphysitism.
3) Usually when people call us Monophysites they mean it as an insult and accuse us of being heretics.
I hope this makes sense. Ask any questions you like!
God Bless,
Elizabeth
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ooo so a mono whatever means that chirst was divine not human...that makes sence. Thanks Elizibeath. Yah tha't snot right. GOD that's ANOYING! I seeeee the agrvation...AHHH GOD!...right chill...hehehe. Thankies
It seems that many so-called "Orthodox" do nothing but act like Pharisees to affirm their Antiochian terminology, without even realizing that they are Antiochians in terminology.
I think this is uncharitable. Look, there are Orthodox who TRULY understand your beelief this way. They simply see things another way. Not because they dont want to believe you (at least I haven't come across any in TAW who are like that) but because their consciences and indepth study (which cannot be done in CF) has lead them to no other conclusion. What I mean is that their intentions are (form my POV) are good, holy and admirable, even if you don't agree with their conclusions (and I am often in agreement with you guys on this subject, that you are NOT monophysites.. at least not in the heretical way the term has been defined, but that's beside the point).
So please, don't throw around the term "pharisee" to insult others. It's unfair, inaccurate and only causes more room for misunderstanding and hardened hearts.
It's the same way with Jesus, he has his divinity and his humanity to make one being. This belief that Jesus Christ is one combined nature is called Miaphysite, and that is what we are. 
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