The issue I have is not the fact that some disagree with our description of the nature of Christ. I understand that not everyone is going to agree on these topics.
My issue is where we explain to someone numerous times that we are not Monophysites, yet Miaphysites. Nerevertheless that one person continues to refer to us as "monophysite Coptic Christians" and our Pope as "Monophysite Pope Shenouda". Now clearly this person has had conversations with myself and others and knows that we don't agree with or like the use of the term monophysite here.
I mean it appears to me that he is clearly making snide remarks, (that he knows will upset us) on a forum where we cannot even defend ourselves or clarify our position or beliefs! That just isn't right.
I mean we are not starting topics here calling you guys polyphysites.
We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Eastern Orthodox Christians are the closer to us than any other Christians. I just don't see how this one topic can all of a sudden turn us into heretics. Look at our history, we are a blessed Church. There are so many miracles that occur in our church and through our Coptic Orthodox Saints. I mean St. Mary appeared above one of our churches for 3 years straight, or study about H.H. Pope Kyrillos VI, and all the documented miracles that he performed in his life and continues to perform.
We are not heretics.
God Bless,
Elizabeth
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I think this is uncharitable. Look, there are Orthodox who TRULY understand your beelief this way. They simply see things another way. Not because they dont want to believe you (at least I haven't come across any in TAW who are like that) but because their consciences and indepth study (which cannot be done in CF) has lead them to no other conclusion. What I mean is that their intentions are (form my POV) are good, holy and admirable, even if you don't agree with their conclusions (and I am often in agreement with you guys on this subject, that you are NOT monophysites.. at least not in the heretical way the term has been defined, but that's beside the point).
So please, don't throw around the term "pharisee" to insult others. It's unfair, inaccurate and only causes more room for misunderstanding and hardened hearts.
John
John, thanks for the post, as I have said in other posts, most people who have done the study based on a baised basis (western historians). I have done an in depth study, and consulted with priests and bishops regarding the issue. All the facts the west has are inconsistent from all the facts the east has ( I am speaking specifically about the Armenian Church, unfortunately I haven't done an in depth study on my Sister Churches, my apologies to them).
Now here is a question I want you guys to think about. I want you to look at all the people who attend our Churches, both EO and OO. I want you to look and all the kids, parents, and grand parents. Now, do all these people in Church know what a monophysite or a diophysite? Do people really understand the doctrine and theology of Communion when they are taking it? Think about it.
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Լո'յս ճշմարիտ Քրիստոս, արժանաւորեա' զհոգի իմ` ուրախութեամբ տեսանել զլոյս փառաց քոց ի կոչման աւուրն եւ հանգչել յուսով բարեաց յօթեվանս արդարոց,մինչեւ յօր մեծի գալստեան քո, ողորմեա' քո արարածոց եւ ինձ` բազմամեղիս:
Please forgive me, I’m not clear about the point you are trying to make. But if your point was, since most children enjoy the faith, without understanding the details of the faith and could form good relations with other churches because of their lack of knowledge, then my response is: If you had a parent or a priest who is teaching you that anyone who is Eastern Orthodox is heretical, then it will damage future relations with the Eastern Orthodox Church. Likewise, if Eastern Orthodox people are teaching each other that Oriental Orthodox are heretical then it will damage future relations with Oriental Orthodox people.
What’s even worse the word “heretical” is thrown at the Oriental Church because some people in the Eastern Orthodox haven’t studied in detail what Monophysitism is about. If they have studied it well, they would never say that about the Oriental Orthodox Church. Just like we would never degrade the Eastern Orthodox Church by labeling them heretical or have pagan practices because they are diophysite and have what appears on the outside teachings similar to Nestorianism.
What I mean is that their intentions are (form my POV) are good, holy and admirable, even if you don't agree with their conclusions (and I am often in agreement with you guys on this subject, that you are NOT monophysites.. at least not in the heretical way the term has been defined, but that's beside the point).
So please, don't throw around the term "pharisee" to insult others. It's unfair, inaccurate and only causes more room for misunderstanding and hardened hearts.
John
To Xpycoctomos (John):
The term used by Mina when he said “act like the Pharisee”, is about how a Pharisee thinks. A Pharisee thinks that they have understood everything and no one can communicate or explain anything to them because they already have the “correct” understanding about everything in their opinion. To truly understand anything, you must read well the subject in great detail and look beyond the biases. I ask you John, was it very fair and “holy” when they labeled Oriental Orthodox people as heretical and have pagan practices in the thread called “Coptic Tattoos” in the EO forum? Was it very fair and holy when they said that because the Oriental Orthodox are heretical, efforts of unity should not resume? Was it very fair or holy when they didn’t allow the Coptic Orthodox to clarify their position??? What do you think we felt when they said that? It hurt us beyond any words to see this coming from our dearly loved brothers and sisters. Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matthew 25: 40) May we not wound each other like this, because when we hurt each other, we are hurting the heart of Jesus. In Jesus’ eyes we are all his precious Children, whether we are Eastern Orthodox, Oriental, Catholic or protestant.
Please forgive me Yeznik and John, I know my weaknesses are great and the sins of my tongue are many, but I have not recovered from the hurt yet. Please pray for me a sinner and I pray that God may bring understanding, wisdom, the spirit of discernment, His peace and love to all our hearts.
Forgive me if that was insulting. If you want, I will edit it.
The problem is that I've tried to talk with someone by PM and to have a conversation with him. While he spends a HUGE amount of time in TAW, he (or she) tells me that "I have no time for this." Someone who acts as a charitable and true Orthodox in public, who mentions that "he (or she) has had discussions with these type of people before" tells me that he has no time. I thought a true Christian would try to refute my arguments in order to hit me with some "truth" that he learned.
This is why I feel that many (and I did not say all...for I PRAISE so many Orthodox who are not Oriental, such as Fr. John Romanides-who with Fr. VC Samuel are my heros in theology, and I wish after the union, hopefully, that a church will be built under BOTH their names-and Fr. Peter Gillquist, who inspires me to evangelize to non-Orthodox) act like Pharisees.
I've had a discussion once with a Copt DEFENDING Leo, something that Copts do not like to do if you know what I mean. I don't even think the Church hereirchs like to do that much either. But I am not afraid of the truth. I love my Coptic Church, but I've also come to understand we misunderstood your fathers as well.
Pray for me.
Mina
Last edited by minasoliman; 22nd April 2005 at 09:36 PM.
What doesn't make sense in this website is the "debating" issue. You can ask questions, but you can't debate. And I did hear that they used to have the Copts and Oriental Orthodox under the same thread as the Eastern Orthodox, and because of some "scholars," the forum has been split, and we are not allowed to debate with one another again.
Suppose I start a debate about how Nestorian your Church is or was. And then you try to clarify your Church, but rather, I complain to admins that you are "debating" in the thread, so your parts are deleted/editted. I mean it's just RIDICULOUS that you can't debate in the same place. While you guys call us Monophysite, we may continue to call you Nestorian here, and instead of a debate, we end up talking against each other without really talking to each other. It's like those verbal fights where rather than insulting the person in front of you, you talk to the person next to him to tell "his friend" the insults.
This website really has a problem. I hope this message is not deleted though. Sigh.
What I wish and pray to see for once is an EO defending us, but that I don't even see. Sometimes, when I defend you and your fathers, I feel I am doing so in vain, especially in the things I read here.
Well, Im not holy enough to judge, but I miss where you've "sinned". Point taken from many of you about the "Pharisee" comment. I have not once entered the Tatoo thread because.... well, qite frankly anything aobut Oriental Orthodox tends to turn into a divisive debate and the tatoo part sounded boring and uninteresting so.. it's still bolded orange on my screen.
I do see what you are saying however. While I beleive it is any Orthodox's right to believe that the Oriental Orthodox are in heresy (a belief I have not been convinced of, to the frustration of some of my brethern.... but I wouldn't even say most), there is a way to go about expressing this, and the intention (which I really cannot judge) must be pure. I have had their position explained to me which seems logical and uses primary texts, but I have equally seen OO arguments (or pro-OO arguments from EOs) that seem logical with primary texts and do a slightly better job at convincing me. But as I said, disagreement should be done with a fair and open mind and most of all with Charity at only seeking Truth (not to win an argument) and it seems to me that, in my past experience in threads regarding this controversy (the very ones that lead up to the creation of this very forum some months ago) most were debating from a very sincere and and educated POV (however biased it may have been... but we're all biased I suppose). But, there were certainly others who went below the belt and refused to listen to your side of the story. That made me very upset and embarrased.
I will admit that the circumstances under which this forum was created (which it seemed very obvious to me that it was a mutual decision, if I may add) were very unfortunate and sad. But, I think it is better this way. The fact is, while I tend to think that we are separated by politics rather than important theological virtues, the 7 ecumenical councils are tenets of our faith. They are not of yours and there has been no official statement from your Church saying that they can accept them, in fact there are problems that your Church has with ours. the fact is, while mystically I believe it is probable that we are indeed one body separated by earthly misunderstandings... we are none the less separated. the fact of the matter is that, being together with the EOs in TAW was a definite disadvantage to you guys. We always held the upperhand (by issue of sheer numbers) and although your POV was to be equally welcomed in TAW, I think those who were here in those days can attest to the fact that this was rarely so. Should we come into communion one day again (which I definitely think there is hope for, even if the event may be distant) there will have been serious obstacles for both of our bishops to overcome. While I am partial to the theory that thre is no important difference between miaphysites and us, I am not fully convinced only because I trust in my bishops wisdom more than my own from having read a few intriguing articles on both sides.
But I fervently pray that we are one again and this prayer is aided and rejuvenated by my own personal beliefs that the chasm which lies between us is not so great as that which may lie between us and the Vatican Catholic Church (a faithful flock I love and respect dearly).
That was long winded.
In the end, I don't (now) blame you for your frustration. TAW can certainly learn a few lessons in humility, but please understand that not all who disagree with you do so simply because they have not taken an honest look at what you have to say. (I mean, I know you "know" you're right which I think is fine, but I also "know" that Orthodox practices are good and correct and is easily seen if you just take an open look at the information that's available, but for some reason, sincere and loving protestants in my life just do not agree with me, even after having taken a sincere look at the info. I can only trust that they are acting out of pure motives and telling the truth. I can't understand how they can't come to my same conclusion... but I'm not them then. Do you see my comparison? Wow.. that was a very long parenthetical!)
God bless all of you and may we continually pray for unity... I truly believe this can be achieved!
MAny problms i have let me put them in bold for u lol...
Originally Posted by Xpycoctomos
Great OP. Thanks for that!
One problem I have.
I think this is uncharitable. Look, there are Orthodox who TRULY understand your beelief this way. They simply see things another way. Not because they dont want to believe you (at least I haven't come across any in TAW who are like that) but because their consciences and indepth study (which cannot be done in CF) has lead them to no other conclusion. What I mean is that their intentions are (form my POV) are good, holy and admirable, even if you don't agree with their conclusions (and I am often in agreement with you guys on this subject, that you are NOT monophysites.. at least not in the heretical way the term has been defined, but that's beside the point).
So please, don't throw around the term "pharisee" to insult others. It's unfair, inaccurate and only causes more room for misunderstanding and hardened hearts.
John
All of those words cuz misundersatnds lolll and i dunn know what the heretical form of monophysites is lol....somebody help me lol
OP- Original Post (the one that started this thread)
TAW- The Ancient Way (The Eastern Orthodox Forum)
CF = Christian Forums (this website)
Pharisee = biblical type. Back track the posts a little and there is an explanation for what is meant by ths word when it was used in the "OP"
POV = POint of View
intentions = the actual purpose or motive behind an action (did the person do this or that out of greedy intentions or good and pure intentions)... kind of like the state of mind one was in when they decided to do such and such an action.
hretical definition f monophysite: The word literally means "one nature" so TECHNICALLY Oriental Orthodox are monophysite...BUT, NOT in the way that the term is originally meant to be used. The term monophysite was used to describe those who thought either Jesus was JUST a man (having only ONE nature- the human one) or JUST God but not really man (having only ONE nature- the divine one). This in no way describes what Coptics believe so it is incorrect to call them monophysites since they would just as emphatically denounce the above beleifs as we would. They (you) beleive that Christ has ONE nature.... BUT it is a kind of God-man nature... He is both GOD and MAN (neither one is denied) and the Oriental Orthodox describe this as one nature for in this mindset it seems (or at least seemed so at the time, probably with good reason for their own culture) dangerous to split them up into two nautures and risk making a kind of schitzophrenic Jesus. Anyhow, Someone here will corrrect my mistakes and fill in the blanks.
What doesn't make sense in this website is the "debating" issue. You can ask questions, but you can't debate. And I did hear that they used to have the Copts and Oriental Orthodox under the same thread as the Eastern Orthodox, and because of some "scholars," the forum has been split, and we are not allowed to debate with one another again.
There was friction on both sides unfortunately. I liked having us as one forum, I was sad to see it split.
OP- Original Post (the one that started this thread)
TAW- The Ancient Way (The Eastern Orthodox Forum)
CF = Christian Forums (this website)
Pharisee = biblical type. Back track the posts a little and there is an explanation for what is meant by ths word when it was used in the "OP"
POV = POint of View
intentions = the actual purpose or motive behind an action (did the person do this or that out of greedy intentions or good and pure intentions)... kind of like the state of mind one was in when they decided to do such and such an action.
hretical definition f monophysite: The word literally means "one nature" so TECHNICALLY Oriental Orthodox are monophysite...BUT, NOT in the way that the term is originally meant to be used. The term monophysite was used to describe those who thought either Jesus was JUST a man (having only ONE nature- the human one) or JUST God but not really man (having only ONE nature- the divine one). This in no way describes what Coptics believe so it is incorrect to call them monophysites since they would just as emphatically denounce the above beleifs as we would. They (you) beleive that Christ has ONE nature.... BUT it is a kind of God-man nature... He is both GOD and MAN (neither one is denied) and the Oriental Orthodox describe this as one nature for in this mindset it seems (or at least seemed so at the time, probably with good reason for their own culture) dangerous to split them up into two nautures and risk making a kind of schitzophrenic Jesus. Anyhow, Someone here will corrrect my mistakes and fill in the blanks.
John
thanks John. U rock my socks! Intentions how could i not know intentions? I must have been tired.
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