Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Science, when done correctly, derives its concepts and theories *from* the data and evidence it finds.
Creation "Science" starts with a preconceived concept or theory and then goes and looks for data and evidence to support it.
Of course, when you go specifically looking for something to support your theory, and you are willing to analyze every evidence in the light most favorable to your theory, you will definitely find some bits and pieces here and there which seem to support your theory. You can even develop a form of "model" based on these bits and pieces which, when combined with your preconceived theory, sounds convincing to those who want to be convinced (but to no one else).
YEC’s will insist that science also starts with preconceived concepts, such as the basic tenets of evolution, or of gravity, or hundreds of other building blocks upon which they do their current work. And, to an extent, this is true. But there are a few major differences:
1. These theories or concepts first arose *from* the physical evidence and data. YEC’ist preconceptions arose from a particular reading of Scripture (and one that *only* YEC’s accept).
2. The entire scientific community is set up to encourage challenges and criticisms of theories and concepts. The YEC community states right up front that their preconceived starting points (an old earth, some limitation on God’s ability to create through evolution) are not up for debate.
3. Scientific theories will be abandoned if and when there is sufficient evidence and cogent analysis which shows that it can not be true. In short, the scientific community will go wherever the overwhelming evidence leads them, even if the path is not what they expected or if it upsets their comfort zones. The YEC community has placed a very specific line where they will not go, no matter what the evidence says.
HERE IS THE KICKER: if we took some intelligent investigators and magically took away all the preconceived ideas, simply wiped them out of their brains, then presented them with the world as it is, they would eventually come up with what science tells us now, or something very much like it. They would NEVER, EVER, come up with any theory which has been presented by a Creation "Scientist". An objective, independent view of our earth and universe would never come up with a global flood, a young earth, etc, etc.
So, in reality, the scientific community, as a whole, is seeking for truth about the natural world. The YEC community is seeking for support. Thus, Creation Science is apologetics, not science.
__________________ In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.
Last edited by Vance; 15th April 2005 at 05:11 PM.
Creationists? O where o where have my creationists gone, O where o where could they be?
__________________
"Believe not because some old manuscripts are produced, believe not because it is your national belief, believe not because you have been made to believe from your childhood, but reason truth out, and after you have analyzed it, then if you find it will do good to one and all, believe it, live up to it and help others live up to it." -Siddhartha Gautama
Sounds logical. The problem is our Humanist Scientist cannot tell REAL facts from supposed facts. The Creationist doesn't establish fact. He lets GOD dictate the facts and works from that level of predetermination.
Sounds logical. The problem is our Humanist Scientist cannot tell REAL facts from supposed facts. The Creationist doesn't establish fact. He lets GOD dictate the facts and works from that level of predetermination.
The Creationist doesn't establish fact. He lets GOD dictate the facts and works from that level of predetermination.
I am glad to see one of you admit this. Unfortunately, creationists always assume that they understand what "facts" are dictated by God.
__________________ “The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense." -Bishop John Shelby Spong
"It is not the obligation of the State to reconcile various faiths with reality. Do it yourself." -Atomweaver
"We have designed our civilization based on science and technology and at the same time arranged things so that almost no one understands anything at all about science and technology. This is a clear prescription for disaster."
- Carl Sagan (Demon Haunted World)
Sounds logical. The problem is our Humanist Scientist cannot tell REAL facts from supposed facts. The Creationist doesn't establish fact. He lets GOD dictate the facts and works from that level of predetermination.
Right, apologetics. NOT science.
As for humanist scientists not being able to tell real facts from supposed facts, this is forgetting what the role of science is. All science can do, all it attempts to do (if being done correctly) is to give us the best explanation available about how the natural world works. It actually does a very good job with this.
__________________ In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.
The Creationist doesn't establish fact. He lets GOD dictate the facts and works from that level of predetermination.
In two sentences you just established EXACTLY what is the problem with Creationism; Thank you. In other words, you guys/girls already KNOW how things happened and look for evidence to support your theory.
That is not science.
__________________ California State Law:No vehicle without a driver may exceed 60 miles per hour. New York State Law:The penalty for jumping off a building exceeding 500ft in height is death.
Hitler burned people like Anne Frank for being Jewish: For that, we call him evil.
Jesus burns people like Anne Frank for being Jewish forever: For that, Christians call him good. ~ todangst
Sounds logical. The problem is our Humanist Scientist cannot tell REAL facts from supposed facts. The Creationist doesn't establish fact. He lets GOD dictate the facts and works from that level of predetermination.
1. Yes, scientists (whether humanist or Christian) have standards by which they can tell real facts from supposed facts. If one particular scientist gets muddled, there is an entire community ready to straighten him out.
2. The Creationist does not let GOD dictate the facts, he starts with his own presumptions based on his particular interpretation of what God has said.
__________________ In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.
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