Genetic Diversity

ardipithecus · #1 30th May 2002, 02:03 AM

I have a question for the YEC/Flood people.

In your model after the flood the following would have been the number of survivors after the flood:

Humans - 8 survivors
Non-clean terrestrial mammals - 2 survivors / species.

What would your prediction be to the relative amount of genetic diversity between humans and non-clean mammals?
Which would you expect more diversity in: a human or a gorilla? Justify your response.

Evolutionists, please allow the YECs to answer....

randman · #2 30th May 2002, 02:11 AM

Um, I am not a YEC per se, but I do want to point out something about the flood and Noah's ark. You always here things like what did the animals eat, and such.

Well, the Bible states that God closed the door to the Ark, not Noah. With God, He is perfectly able and willing to overcome natural laws and principles.

That may not satisfy you, but God in the Bible intervense in a supernatural manner utilyzing spiritual principles that science is too primitive at this stage to recognize.

Starscream · #3 30th May 2002, 02:13 AM

Well, the Bible states that God closed the door to the Ark, not Noah. With God, He is perfectly able and willing to overcome natural laws and principles.

Then why bother with all this boat and flood nonsense in the first place?

AV1611VET · #4 11th June 2011, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by randman

Um, I am not a YEC per se, but I do want to point out something about the flood and Noah's ark. You always here things like what did the animals eat, and such.

Well, the Bible states that God closed the door to the Ark, not Noah. With God, He is perfectly able and willing to overcome natural laws and principles.

That may not satisfy you, but God in the Bible intervense in a supernatural manner utilyzing spiritual principles that science is too primitive at this stage to recognize.

-- My thoughts exactly!

mark kennedy · #5 12th June 2011, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by ardipithecus

I have a question for the YEC/Flood people.

In your model after the flood the following would have been the number of survivors after the flood:

Humans - 8 survivors
Non-clean terrestrial mammals - 2 survivors / species.

What would your prediction be to the relative amount of genetic diversity between humans and non-clean mammals?
Which would you expect more diversity in: a human or a gorilla? Justify your response.

Evolutionists, please allow the YECs to answer....

Your questions are sketchy at best. Let's focus on diversity expected between humans and apes. Now I would expect there to be functionally important differences that far exceed the '99% the same' myth popularized by evolutionists.

But to be honest, your right, there is a problem here. With such small numbers and such little time there would have to be something dramatic that happened following the flood. There would have been a flourish of adaptive radiation unprecedented and irreversible within a couple of generations happening quickly and on a nearly constant basis then stopping gradually.

There is such a thing as a creationist model for evolution except creationists think they are opposed to evolution. The fact is that they are radical evolutionists, they are just too busy ignoring a lot of silly homology arguments.

Now let me ask you a question, how much genetic diversity do you think exists when comparing chimpanzee and human DNA? More importantly, how different would you expect them to be? Justify your answer.

Have a nice day

Mark

walkingxshadow · #6 12th June 2011, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by mark kennedy

Your questions are sketchy at best. Let's focus on diversity expected between humans and apes. Now I would expect there to be functionally important differences that far exceed the '99% the same' myth popularized by evolutionists.

But to be honest, your right, there is a problem here. With such small numbers and such little time there would have to be something dramatic that happened following the flood. There would have been a flourish of adaptive radiation unprecedented and irreversible within a couple of generations happening quickly and on a nearly constant basis then stopping gradually.

There is such a thing as a creationist model for evolution except creationists think they are opposed to evolution. The fact is that they are radical evolutionists, they are just too busy ignoring a lot of silly homology arguments.

Now let me ask you a question, how much genetic diversity do you think exists when comparing chimpanzee and human DNA? More importantly, how different would you expect them to be? Justify your answer.

Have a nice day
Mark

humans and primates do share about 97-99% of DNA depending on who you ask and who did the study. that is not a myth.

but on topic. i tend to think that the whole thing falls under the realm of miracle. and as such anything is possible. God is God and can do what ever he wants. and seeing as there are still terrestrial animals around today i dont think it really was a problem.

mark kennedy · #7 12th June 2011, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by walkingxshadow

humans and primates do share about 97-99% of DNA depending on who you ask and who did the study. that is not a myth.

Wrong!

On the basis of this analysis, we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb of species-specific euchromatic sequence, and the indel differences between the genomes thus total ~90 Mb. This difference corresponds to ~3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions" (Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome, Nature 2005)

That means that they share less then 96% of the same DNA at best and that does not count the chromosomal rearrangements.

The events are distributed throughout the genome on all chromosomes but are highly correlated with sites of segmental duplication in human and chimpanzee. These structural variants encompass at least 24 Mb of DNA and overlap with >245 genes. Seventeen of these genes contain exons missing in the chimpanzee genomic sequence and also show a significant reduction in gene expression in chimpanzee. Compared with the pioneering work of Yunis, Prakash, Dutrillaux, and Lejeune, this analysis expands the number of potential rearrangements between chimpanzees and humans 50-fold.

Genome Biol. 2006

A genome-wide survey of structural variation between human and chimpanzee
A genome-wide survey of structural variation between human and chimpanzee

but on topic. i tend to think that the whole thing falls under the realm of miracle. and as such anything is possible. God is God and can do what ever he wants. and seeing as there are still terrestrial animals around today i dont think it really was a problem.

Not just anything is possible, unless of course, you are talking about a miracle. With God all things are possible but with genetics there are real world limitations to how much natural evolution can happen. Evolutionists and creationists both face this limitation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

walkingxshadow · #8 12th June 2011, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by mark kennedy

Wrong!
On the basis of this analysis, we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb of species-specific euchromatic sequence, and the indel differences between the genomes thus total ~90 Mb. This difference corresponds to ~3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions" (Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome, Nature 2005)
That means that they share less then 96% of the same DNA at best and that does not count the chromosomal rearrangements.
The events are distributed throughout the genome on all chromosomes but are highly correlated with sites of segmental duplication in human and chimpanzee. These structural variants encompass at least 24 Mb of DNA and overlap with >245 genes. Seventeen of these genes contain exons missing in the chimpanzee genomic sequence and also show a significant reduction in gene expression in chimpanzee. Compared with the pioneering work of Yunis, Prakash, Dutrillaux, and Lejeune, this analysis expands the number of potential rearrangements between chimpanzees and humans 50-fold.
Genome Biol. 2006

A genome-wide survey of structural variation between human and chimpanzee
A genome-wide survey of structural variation between human and chimpanzee

Not just anything is possible, unless of course, you are talking about a miracle. With God all things are possible but with genetics there are real world limitations to how much natural evolution can happen. Evolutionists and creationists both face this limitation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

i like i said it depends on the study. maybe i should have put the range more like 95-99%. no matter how you slice it we share a vast majority of our DNA with primates. we have 50% in common with a banana! so i dont think its so far fetched to think wed have a lot more in common with an organism we are so much more similar to. and i understand the genetics. i understand the science. ill be a senior undergrad biochem student in the fall. and i plan on pursuing a PhD in genetics and molecular biology. so i get it. and when they about similarities its not always straight a's, t's, c's and g's. they also talk about similar proteins that may not be coded for exactly the same way but serve the same function. and similar genes may not be on the same chromosomes. so theres always a margin for error in these things. thats why i said it depends on the study.

and as for miracles. God can do what ever he wants. thats why its a miracle. defying the laws of physics youre ok with as in the parting of the red sea. but munking around with genetics you dont like?

mark kennedy · #9 12th June 2011, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by walkingxshadow

i like i said it depends on the study. maybe i should have put the range more like 95-99%.

You do know you are talking about hundreds of millions of base pairs for each percentage point right? A more accurate statement would be less then 96% depending on if you are talking about actual research or generalities.

no matter how you slice it we share a vast majority of our DNA with primates. we have 50% in common with a banana!

And still we are not half banana, isn't that amazing.

so i dont think its so far fetched to think wed have a lot more in common with an organism we are so much more similar to. and i understand the genetics. i understand the science. ill be a senior undergrad biochem student in the fall. and i plan on pursuing a PhD in genetics and molecular biology. so i get it. and when they about similarities its not always straight a's, t's, c's and g's. they also talk about similar proteins that may not be coded for exactly the same way but serve the same function. and similar genes may not be on the same chromosomes. so theres always a margin for error in these things. thats why i said it depends on the study.

Always a pleasure to discuss these things with someone educated on the subject. You would like sfs, if you haven't talked to him yet. Anyway, there are major differences between chimpanzees and humans and the known differences are growing as we speak. Bear that in mind when you toy with these homology arguments.

I have not seen a comparative study that indicates anything approaching a 99% commonality in years. If you have I'd love to see it.

and as for miracles. God can do what ever he wants. thats why its a miracle. defying the laws of physics youre ok with as in the parting of the red sea. but munking around with genetics you dont like?

God need not invoke a miracle for living systems to evolve, adapt and transpose in all their vast array. There are mechanisms that facilitate that except there is a problem. These genomes have been gradually accumulating mutations that hinder adaptive evolution. Now mind you, I'm not talking about gross changes but net effective alterations resulting in adaptive traits. A mutation on the other hand is most often a failure of DNA repair and the effects when they are strong enough to have an effect are almost always deleterious except in the rarest of occasions.

walkingxshadow · #10 12th June 2011, 01:55 AM

dude i wasnt looking for an argument. i was just stating a few facts. humans and primates have a massive amount in common the end. you can nit pick over a few percent if you want it doesnt matter. and we still have 50% in common with bananas even if we dont look like one. proteins, processing machinery, and the like are what we have in common. and i was saying God coulc have worked a miracle so that the limited gene pool after the flood did not cause problems. not that he was invoking evolution.

and i understand mutations. thats where variation comes from. and it arises from many sources. not just celluar mistakes. UV rays and mutagenic chemicals are also responsible for a majority of mutation.