Preterism

Mandy · #1 23rd May 2002, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Pericles

Scott, I would be happy to answer some of your questions, from my own perspective, with my current understanding of the Scripture.

1. All Christ's enemies conquered?
Yes, who are Christ's enemies? Satan, death...demons maybe? You don't believe they have been conquered through His sacrifice? Christ's blood is continually cleaning us of our sins, making spiritual death and separation from God irrelevant, thus death is defeated.

2. There isn't one place anywhere in the Bible that says that "evil" will ever completely dissapear. Evil is a result of sin. At the end of Revelation, AFTER the return of Christ, and in the New Heaven and Earth, you can actually read that sin and wickedness still exists, despite your expectations: Rev 21:27
Furthermore, in Revelation 22:2, you can read that there is a tree that is there for "the healing of the nations". If you expect this upcoming new heaven and earth to be so perfect, why is there a need for healing?

3. When I die, I will go directly into Christ's presence. Unfortunately, as a futurist, you are unable to say that, because Christ did not return, this heaven is not ready, and you have not yet been judged, so you can't go to heaven when you die...you will go to Hades, the waiting place. that stinks...hehe

4. Yes, revelation is a prophecy about the time of the end, not the end of time. The Bible never talks about the "end of time", so again, you are simply speaking out of lack of knowledge of eschatology.

After your questions, you are saying, "I simply can't see how anyone can say it already happened and that the world we live in now is bliss."

When did anyone claim that this world is bliss? The physical world is not bliss....because Christ did not come to fix the physical. He said "My Kingdom is not of this world", yet despite that clear statement, you expect Christ to come and physically sit on an actual chair as King in Jerusalem. How ironic.

Christ came to fix the larger problem of humanity, SIN. Sin causes spiritual death, abd separation from God. That problem was resolved, thus Christ's mission is accomplished. You don't resolve spiritual problems with physical solutions. Christ returning on a physical cloud and sitting on David's chair in Jerusalem will not bring one single extra soul to Him...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

What exactly is your interpretation of these verses? Particularly the verse in bold. There is still death, sorrow, tears and pain.

Shaggy · #2 23rd May 2002, 02:56 PM

These times are probably more filled with sin than any other time in the worlds history!

How can it be that anyone can think we are living in the Garden of Eden now? Isn't it obvious Christ hasn't returned yet?

Just look at the world, can you not see signs of things written in John and Revelation seeming to be coming to pass?

I don't understand I guess.

Shaggy · #3 23rd May 2002, 03:03 PM

Do Preterists believe the time is at hand?

Gods timeframe is different than ours, I believe the time is at hand now, soon, maybe even in our lifetime we will see the return of God.

Shaggy · #4 23rd May 2002, 03:06 PM

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How can you argue with this? The world is STILL full of pain and sorrow! More so than ever before.

Pericles · #5 23rd May 2002, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Mandy

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

What exactly is your interpretation of these verses? Particularly the verse in bold. There is still death, sorrow, tears and pain.

Hello Mandy, thank you for participating

I will provide two answers to your questions. Again, I have written a detailed article on the meaning of Heavens, Earth and Sea in Revelation 21. You can read this article here There is no evidence that Revelation 21:1 and subsequent verses talks about the physical heavens and earth. Ironically, in Isaiah 51:14, God himself says that the establishment of Jerusalem is the establishment of Heaven and Earth..believe that...symbolic language used in the Bible...

“I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’” Unless God created two sets of heavens and earth, I would like you to explain this passage...

The second point, about pain and suffering, I believe that has been accomplished by Christ 2,000 years ago. A physical expectation of your quotes is greatly misguided. In fact, I would like to ask you...do you think that God will actualy have physical hands and will go around to physically wipe people's tears away? If so, why not? That's what the verse says right?

Mandy · #6 23rd May 2002, 03:22 PM

So the answer then is to spiritualize Revelation?

Pericles · #7 23rd May 2002, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Mandy
So the answer then is to spiritualize Revelation?

To be fair, let's try to go "back and forth" I believe I answered quite a few of your questions, and you left quite a few of mine unanswered

Shaggy · #8 23rd May 2002, 03:28 PM

The second point, about pain and suffering, I believe that has been accomplished by Christ 2,000 years ago. A physical expectation of your quotes is greatly misguided. In fact, I would like to ask you...do you think that God will actualy have physical hands and will go around to physically wipe people's tears away? If so, why not? That's what the verse says right?

"Shadow of my hand" man! C'mon give us something to chew on!

Shaggy · #9 23rd May 2002, 03:34 PM

[Revelation 22:2]In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Is this what you are talking about? Could it not be worded as symbolism so that ALL peoples may understand it's meaning?
I believe it is quite obvious what it is saying.

GW · #10 23rd May 2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Shaggy
These times are probably more filled with sin than any other time in the worlds history!

Brother Shaggy,

Pause a minute and re-read what you just said. Do you really know your history well enough to say this? I don't believe you do, because you are not at all correct here. The ancient world in which Jesus lived was infinitely more wicked than today, and only Israel had an enlightened system of justice among all other nations that were entirely shut off from the Covenant.

Furthermore, if you just do a quick comparison of the justice system in the Christianized West of today and compare that to the Asian countries you will see an enormous difference. What has made the difference in the way countries have progressed? Christianity. Everywhere the Kingdom of God has spread and become entrenched, the ice melts, people are set free, and a great many barbarisms are destroyed/made obsolete as Christian representation and leadership takes over. This is what has happened over the course of 20 centuries and it is what will continue to happen provided evangelicals stop heading for the hills and abdicating their Kingdom responsibilities.

At the time of Christ only a tiny geographic region had any knowledge of God's covenant. That land of Israel is smaller than Ohio. The rest of the planet was darkened. Since the Messianic Covenant began, the gospel of the Kingdom has spread and taken root and changed whole civilizations. For goodness sakes, the leader of the free world is an Evangelical Christian!

Finally, what was the greatest crime that could ever be committed by any generation in history? Clearly to kill God incarnate was the greatest crime ever committed in history. That action required the greatest judgment upon that generation (1 Thes 2:14-16; Matt 23:32-38).

Originally posted by Shaggy
Isn't it obvious Christ hasn't returned yet?

Jerusalem fell, the Temple was destroyed, and Israel entered its eternal New Covenant Age. The Parousia has happened. The Kingdom of God came right on time (Mark 1:14-15).

Originally posted by Shaggy
Just look at the world, can you not see signs of things written in John and Revelation seeming to be coming to pass?

Revelation was a vision that was for St. John and his contemporaries. All the events contained therein were to come to pass shortly in their generation (Rev 1:1; 1:3; 22:6-7; 22:10-11; 3:1-3; Matthew 24:33-34). And the book of Revelation is a vision with much symbolism.

God bless, brother. Be of good cheer, Christ has overcome the world.

GW