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  #1  
Unread 29th January 2005, 01:14 AM
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Does God choose who will be saved?

OK this was mentioned in another post and I must say I don't understand. The poster was saying that God chooses and decides who will believe in him and then be saved, and who doesn't. Is this true? Can it be supported by scripture? I'm a really new Christian so I'm not really well educated about the scripture. But is this true? If it is..how can it be right? I mean...for God to choose that so and so will not believe in him and so will never be saved and so will go to Hell...how is this just? Someone please explain it to me
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-Les Miserables
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  #2  
Unread 29th January 2005, 01:25 AM
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Hi Blessed Vegan,

Originally Posted by BlessedVegan
If it is..how can it be right? I mean...for God to choose that so and so will not believe in him and so will never be saved and so will go to Hell...how is this just?
Election does not mean that God chooses people to believe and to not believe - it means that God chooses those who will be saved out of all sinners, men sin by choice, but by nature cannot believe by choice, which is why God must choose them and draw them to Him.

Justice is getting what one deserves. Those sinners who are not elected to salvation receive justice because they receive the consequence of their sin - spiritual death.
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all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour

i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain


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  #3  
Unread 29th January 2005, 01:41 AM
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I don't understand. Do you mean that of those unforgiven sinners (those who don't repent) God chooses who will be saved anyway? IE..they never turn to God themselves but some of them he saves anyway?
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Take my love, for love is everlasting.
And remember, the truth that once was spoken.
To love another person is to see the face of God!
-Les Miserables
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  #4  
Unread 29th January 2005, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BlessedVegan
I don't understand. Do you mean that of those unforgiven sinners (those who don't repent) God chooses who will be saved anyway? IE..they never turn to God themselves but some of them he saves anyway?
Yes. Men, because of spiritual death in Adam, have a will that will never turn to God unless God changes their heart.

Blessed Vegan, I encourage you to study this issue in depth. What I am telling you is my view, but there are many others out there. Test these different views against the scriptures, and see which one comes out true.
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all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour

i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain



Last edited by Bulldog; 31st January 2005 at 01:39 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 29th January 2005, 02:03 AM
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Thanks for responding! Can you reccomend a book or something I should read on this subject?
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Take my hand, and lead me to salvation.
Take my love, for love is everlasting.
And remember, the truth that once was spoken.
To love another person is to see the face of God!
-Les Miserables
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  #6  
Unread 29th January 2005, 02:47 AM
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The faith we need to be saved comes from God so that no one can boast of his salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-9

2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

2:9not of works, lest anyone should boast.


God chooses who will believe through foreknowledge and brings it to pass according to His will:

1 Peter 1:1-2

1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1:2elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.


But His foreknowledge does not in any way imply He did not choose according to His perfect will:

Philippians 2:13

2:12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

2:13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


Various verses:

Ephesians 1:3-6

1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

1:4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

1:5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

1:6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.


2 Thessalonians 2:13

2:13But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

2:14to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Romans 8:28-30

8:28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


There are many more, but I hope it helps.

Blessings, WH
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  #7  
Unread 29th January 2005, 10:22 AM
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Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that He will draw "all" men (including women) unto Him (in salvation) if He is lifted up (after resurrection).

John 12:32 : And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The below verse also suggests the large-heartedness of God Almighty to win all human beings to Himself eternally.

1 Timothy 2:4 : Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I think, hope, wish and pray (in these lines) that all human beings shall be saved and live in eternal bliss with our Heavenly Father.

The 2 verses clearly speak out that God does not choose who should be saved and who should not be. Christ shed His precious blood for all human beings so that all the human beings can be saved provided they are willing to accept Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour and lord in their hearts.

So, God wants every human being......

whether good or bad,
whether sinner or righteous,
whether weak or strong,
whether rich or poor,
whether foolish or wise,
whether black or white or any other color,
and irrespective or race, caste or creed to be saved and be with Him forever and forever.
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  #8  
Unread 29th January 2005, 11:19 AM
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So vinc how do you feel the verse you posted relates to the ones that Whitehorse posted? They seem to be saying opposing things.
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__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take my hand, and lead me to salvation.
Take my love, for love is everlasting.
And remember, the truth that once was spoken.
To love another person is to see the face of God!
-Les Miserables
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  #9  
Unread 29th January 2005, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BlessedVegan
Thanks for responding! Can you reccomend a book or something I should read on this subject?
I'm sure there are more, but two come quickly to mind:

Chosen by God by R.C Sproul

THe Potter's Freedom by James R. White
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all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour

i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain


Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 29th January 2005, 11:42 AM
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Don't Tread on Me

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Join Date: 19th January 2004
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Posts: 8,823
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Originally Posted by vinc

John 12:32 : And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Not a salvation context- the context is judgement here. True, drawing to salvation always results in faith (John 6:44)

1 Timothy 2:4 : Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


The Greek word for "all" (pas) can mean either "all" in the sense of "all individually" or "all types." The latter would make sense here. Take a look at verses one and two:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (1 Timothy 2:1-2)

Kings and those in authority are a type of people. Paul was exorting Timothy to pray for them because of persecution by those in authority at the time. Secondly, look at verse 5:

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2:5)

Since (according to your view) the context here is "all men individually", do you believe that Christ mediates between all men and God?
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all this that i have
is all that you are
cutting for love
a new trophy scar
just not worth the tears
and the penance
not worth the blood
that we both pour

i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die without this pain
i want to live
without the guilt we give
i want to die
without your name
without this pain



Last edited by Bulldog; 31st January 2005 at 11:25 AM.
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