Officially a EMoHC

krstlros · #21 16th January 2005, 10:03 PM

Well, FullyMT, how was your first day as an EMHC?

Skripper · #22 16th January 2005, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by krstlros

Obedience people.\

Originally Posted by krstlros

Obedience.

Until the Bishop of your particular Diocease impliments such Norms, then whatever is being done at THIS particular time is to be adhered to. You can have all the documentation and passages and whatever sitings that you can find. What is to be adhered to is obedienc to the Bishop.

Now, if you have a concern which you feel needs to be addressed, bring it up with your Parish Priest, if you feel you need to go further, then to the Bishop's office. If that doesn't get the answers you need, then take it up with the Archdiocease and if necessary with the appropriate Vatican office.

The wording of the documents, encuclicals and instructions are very specific. And worded in such a way that can lead to a lot of questions in procedures. The word "avoided" does not mean "do not do" It is at all possible to do it "this" way, and if it cannot be then procedures must be approved by the Bishop.

Remember, your spriitual leader for your Diocease is your Bishop. He is the one you look to for instruction and guidance. And those he appoints are those he trusts in various aspects of Church life and function he believes are knowledgable and are loyal to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Krstlros,

While I agree with paragraph two above, I respectfully disagree with the implications of paragraph one, which would seem to give the stamp of approval not only to this practice, but any other as well, so long as it is“being done at THIS particular time.” This sort of reasoning could be construed to rationalize virtually any manner of liturgical abuse, so long as it's already being done, at this particular time.(And in fact seemingly already has, as evidenced by This post, which is in reference to some other types of current abuses)

I would also respectfully disagree with your assessment regarding the word “avoided.” That it "does not mean 'do not do.' " Firstly, I would point out that “avoided,” in and of itself, certainly is synonymous with “do not do,” as can easily be seen by the plain dictionary definition of the word:

1 : to make legally void : ANNUL <avoid a plea>
2 obsolete : VOID, EXPEL
3 a : to keep away from : SHUN b : to prevent the occurrence or effectiveness of c : to refrain from
4 archaic : to depart or withdraw from : LEAVEThe documents do not attach the caveat that you have above. (From Miriam Webster’s Online Dictionary)

Second, Redemptionis Sacramentum does not merely say “avoided.” It employs much stronger (and clearer) language by the use of the modifier, “completely,” as in “completely to be avoided”:

106. However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided . . .

Finally, the above, from Redemptionis Sacramentum, combined with Cardinal Arinze’s words, along with the USCCB’s own elimination of any reference to pouring the Precious Blood make it perfectly clear that the practice is indeed a definite “don’t do it,”:

“. . .an emended text of the USCCB Norms which eliminates both the pouring of the Precious Blood and the use of flagons.”

So let’s not confuse the issue by adding to the meaning of the texts caveats that not only are not there, but are actually excluded by the strong and clear language of the texts themselves. It’s perfectly clear and there is no wiggle room, at this particular time; pouring the Precious Blood should not be done, at all, under any circumstances.

FullyMT · #23 17th January 2005, 12:14 AM

Well, FullyMT, how was your first day as an EMHC?

It was wonderful and after I had put the cup into the sacristy, I felt so...overwhelmed with this feeling that I had done something wonderful for people. No, I don't expect this feeling all the time, and I wasn't expecting it. Before Mass, I prayed the Litany of the Precious Blood, which, once I found, thought was quite amazing

And about the pouring thing...Part of it is also that Bishop Brown has some questions about OTHER parts of Redemptoris Sacramentum, and doesn't want to implement anything in it before knowing EVERYTHING. Our pastor, Fr. Tim, has sent his excellency Bishop Brown a dubium about this subject. There's some other stuff that I heard from some people who work for the diocese in my parish, but they aren't very...um...respecting of Bishop Brown.
I also found out that deacons are supposed to neal during the Eucharistic Liturgy (or parts of it), which I've never seen take place during ANY Mass anywhere.

krstlros · #24 17th January 2005, 02:15 AM

Skipper:

As I've stressed earlier,it all comes does to obediance. It all comes down to the implimentation of the Bishop.

As for Redemptonis Sacramentum, there are a lot of problems which many of the Bishops and even Parish Priests are seeing within the document. Including the wine before and after Consecration.

So, until a Bishop is appointed for our Diocease, and standards can be implimented, what we have been doing shall be the Norm. As with everything that comes down from the Bishop's office, my Parish Priest, who is very sticky about these things, will be sure to impliment these guidelines.

WE can continue to argue the point. However, everything that is practiced at the Parish level comes from directives from the Bishop.

krstlros · #25 17th January 2005, 02:21 AM

FullyMT: I am so thrilled with your first Sunday as an EMHC. As you already know, every time you are an EMHC will not always be this way. Each time is different. Keep praying, keep learning and keep listening. It is very amazing what the Eucharist can do in your life.

geocajun · #26 17th January 2005, 10:15 AM

It is my understanding that any particular exeptions given by the Holy See are automatically abrogated when a norm is declared such as was done in Redemptionis Sacramentum.
Also you are to follow your Bishop in obedience, yes, however in the absense of a Bishop's instruction, or if you know instruction form your Bishop is contrary to what the Holy See mandates, then you must follow the Holy See.
Remember St. Thomas More, and why he is a Saint... Did he follow his Bishop into schism? (extreme example I know)

So does ones Bishop have the authority to override or postpone implementation of the normative instructions promulgated in Redemptionis Sacramentum?
Well... lets take a closer look at the document.

Originally Posted by Redemptionis Sacramentum

[2] ... the Supreme Pontiff has mandated that this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments,[8] in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, should prepare this Instruction treating of certain matters pertaining to the discipline of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. ...

so we see here that the Pope, or Supreme Pontiff mandated this document be prepared.

Originally Posted by Redemptionis Sacramentum

[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.

So the Pope has "Immediate and Universal ordinary power"... hmm seems clear enough that even in your own diocese, the Holy Father has the final word. He is your Bishops boss.

Originally Posted by Redemptionis Sacramentum

[186] This Instruction, prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments by mandate of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was approved by the same Pontiff on the Solemnity of St. Joseph, 19 March 2004, and he ordered it to be published and to be observed immediately by all concerned.

well there you have it... the Pope - the Vicar of Christ, and the guy your Bishop has sworn obedience too, has ordered that it be observed "Immediately".
Does a local Bishop have the authority to ignore or postpone this implementation? nope... this is instruction from the Pope... not some local tribunal or canon lawyer, or Deacon

, but the Supreme Pontiff himself.

PeterPaul · #27 17th January 2005, 10:42 AM

Excellent reminder Geo!

Skripper · #28 17th January 2005, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by geocajun

It is my understanding that any particular exeptions given by the Holy See are automatically abrogated when a norm is declared such as was done in Redemptionis Sacramentum.
Also you are to follow your Bishop in obedience, yes, however in the absense of a Bishop's instruction, or if you know instruction form your Bishop is contrary to what the Holy See mandates, then you must follow the Holy See.
Remember St. Thomas More, and why he is a Saint... Did he follow his Bishop into schism? (extreme example I know)

So does ones Bishop have the authority to override or postpone implementation of the normative instructions promulgated in Redemptionis Sacramentum?
Well... lets take a closer look at the document.

Originally Posted by Redemptionis Sacramentum

[2] ... the Supreme Pontiff has mandated that this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments,[8] in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, should prepare this Instruction treating of certain matters pertaining to the discipline of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. ...

so we see here that the Pope, or Supreme Pontiff mandated this document be prepared.

Originally Posted by [/i

Redemptionis Sacramentum]

Originally Posted by [/i

[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.

So the Pope has "Immediate and Universal ordinary power"... hmm seems clear enough that even in your own diocese, the Holy Father has the final word. He is your Bishops boss.

Originally Posted by [i

Redemptionis Sacramentum

Originally Posted by [i

]

Originally Posted by [i

[186] This Instruction, prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments by mandate of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was approved by the same Pontiff on the Solemnity of St. Joseph, 19 March 2004, and he ordered it to be published and to be observed immediately by all concerned.

well there you have it... the Pope - the Vicar of Christ, and the guy your Bishop has sworn obedience too, has ordered that it be observed "Immediately".
Does a local Bishop have the authority to ignore or postpone this implementation? nope... this is instruction from the Pope... not some local tribunal or canon lawyer, or Deacon , but the Supreme Pontiff himself.

Thanks, Jason. Outstanding post. There we have it indeed. Thanks so much for your input!