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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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Unread 26th December 2004, 04:47 PM
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Amillennialism, Postmillennialism and Premillennialism. What are they?

I wrote these two papers for a couple of third-year University courses back in late 2001 and early 2002. I figured that there are a lot of people here that don't know even what these words mean, let along the differences between them. They're not too long. Hopefully these will enlighten a few people on the different end-time views.


Views on Eschatology


Christianity has taught that Christ will return to Earth sometime in the future. This event is referred to as the Parousia. Eschatology, as quoted from Val F. Sauer Jr., in The Eschatology Handbook, “can be defined as the doctrine or teaching of last things”.[1] There are many accounts in the Bible which speak of Jesus Christ returning to Earth on the last day. One of these accounts is found in Acts 1:11; “This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven”.[2] This verse could not be clearer in the teaching that Jesus will come back.



This teaching that Jesus will return is not disputed in the carious Christian denomination, for the most part. What is heavily disputed are the events surrounding the return of Christ. This is not uncommon as even Paul changed his mind concerning the Parousia. Originally Paul expected Christ to return soon, within his lifetime. By the time Paul died he realized that Christ might not come back for many years.



They many different views on the Parousia can be sub-divided into two main categories. The two main categories are called amillennialism and millennialism. While amillennialism is fairly straightforward, millennialism can be divided into two major groups; premillennialism and postmillennialism. Premillennialism, often referred to as dispensationalism, can be again divided into three more areas. These are called pretribulationalism, midtribulationalism and postribulationalism.



Millennialism teaches that the church will experience a literal one thousand years of harmony thought Christ. This view is based on a literal understanding of the twentieth chapter of Revelation,



1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.[3]

Amillennialism teaches that these one thousand years is not literal. According to Richard Bauckham in his essay, Must Christian Eschatology be Millenarian? A Response to Jűrgen Moltmann, “those who interpret the thousand years of Revelation 20 not as a period in the future, but as a period of history in which the present belongs, have usually been called amillennalists”.[4] Amillennialism generally does not take a literal approach to the imagery in Revelation. Amillennialism teaches that we are already living in the millennium. Often Matthew 6:33 is interpreted as referring that we are already living in the millennium:

31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.[5]



It should be noted that the majority of Christianity embraces amillennialism in their theology. This includes Lutherans, Anglicans, the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches. The Lutheran view of the millennium is made very clear in Luther’s Small Catechism; according to Luther, “Revelation 20 speaks in picture language of Christ’s spiritual rule on the earth through the Gospel and does not refer to earthly government”.[6] Sauer also holds this view:

The thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a real number used as an apocalyptic symbol of the fullness of time that has broken into our world in the person of Jesus Christ. The millennium represents a real period of time between the first advent of our Lord and His second coming. Its duration is known only to God since its consummation will occur at the return of Jesus Christ.[7]





At the end of the millennium, Christians will experience tribulation and persecution, then Jesus Christ is expected to return and judge the living and the dead.

Another view on the millennium is postmillennialism. Postmillennialism is similar to amillennialism in that both theories do not take the thousand years of Revelation 20 literally. Postmillennialism teaches that in the latter days, there will be a religious revival, leading to a golden age of humanity. This theory then goes on to teach that the Church will usher in the millennium. According to Bruce Bickel and Stan Jantz, postmillennialists hold the “view that the church is in the process of building the kingdom of God right now by being a positive influence in society”.[8] Bruce and Stan also mention that “the primary part of this belief system is its belief in the final triumph of good over evil before Christ returns”.[9] According to Sauer there are three problems with this view. The first problem is that “there is no ground in Scripture for the hope of unparalleled spiritual prosperity just before the return of Christ.” Secondly, “the concept of the passing of the present age into a “golden age” of the future is contradicted by the increase of wickedness prophesied in Scripture.” Thirdly, “this view simply is contrary to what the Bible has to say concerning man and his sinful nature”.[10] This view is not widespread any longer, although it was popular in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. This is confirmed by Richard Kyle in The Last Days are Here Again: A History of the End Times. He notes that “the enlightenment fostered an optimistic view of the world contrary to premillennialism. Thus came in postmillennialism, the eschatological interpretation that would dominate during the eighteen and nineteenth centuries”.[11] Premillennialism would make a triumphant return with the theories of Darby in the nineteenth century.

Many churches view the millennium as a literal thousand years. This is called premillennialism. Premillennialism can be divided into three categories: pretribulationalism, midtribulationalism and postribulationalism. The event, which separates the three views, is called the rapture. Although the rapture appears in every eschatological view, it has had the greatest controversies in the three millennial views. The rapture can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:



16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.[12]



The rapture is placed either at the beginning, the middle, or at the end of the period called the tribulation. Millennialists see the tribulation as a seven-year period before Christ returns. The basis for this idea is found in Daniel 9:24-27:



24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e]

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [h] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i] In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k] " [l][13]

These seventy weeks were to be counted from the time that a decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem. According to Halley’s Bible Handbook, “there were three decrees issued by Persian Kings for this purpose. The principal one was 457 BC.”[14] Counting the ‘sevens’ as years, there will be sixty-nine sets of sevens, or 483 years until the Anointed One comes. As stated by Halley’s, “adding 483 (Jewish 360 day) years to 457 BC brings us to AD 26, the very year that Jesus was baptized and began his public ministry.”[15] The period between the first sixty-nine ‘weeks’ and the seventieth ‘week’ is seen as the dispensation of grace, or as the Church age. The “Anointed One” is Jesus, while “the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary” is thought to be the Antichrist. When the “Anointed One” is cut off and ‘the ruler’ confirms “a covenant with many for one seven”, the seven-year tribulation is said to begin.

Postribulationalism places the rapture simultaneously with the coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation. This is essentially the same as the amillennial view, except that the tribulation is not a set period of time. The main problem with this view is that the rapture, and therefore the second advent of Christ, occurs at the end of a set period of time. This is contrary to Matthew 24:36-42:

36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.[16]

Because it would be possible to calculate seven years from “a covenant with many”, this theory of postribulationalism must be rejected.

The next view on the tribulation is called midtribulationalism. Midtribulationalism teaches that the rapture will occur after three and a half years have passed since the beginning of the tribulation. This idea comes from a combination of Daniel chapter nine, “In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering”, and Matthew 24:21-22:

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, the for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.[17]



This view holds as much stable ground as the postribulational view, for it also totally contradicts Matthew 25:36-42 and must be rejected.

The third major view is called pretribulationalism. This view emphasizes that Christians will be raptured before the tribulation occurs. Pretribulationalism, also called dispensationalism, is immensely popular in America today. Then the television is turn on and a TV evangelist such as the popular John Hagee or Jack Van Impe appears, this is the view that is being taught. The hugely popular books, The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Linsey and the Left Behind book series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins are also based on this view. The view that Christians sill escape hard ties to be with Christ is a wonderfully attractive one. One major plus for this theory is that it eliminates the argument in Matthew 24 that “no one knows the day or hour”. If Jesus has already come to rapture his believers, as set period of time for the tribulation is conceivable. There is a least one major flaw in this teaching though. The idea of a secret coming in the clouds of Jesus to catch up all Christian believers is nowhere found in the Bible. The rapture passage in 1 Thessalonians 16-17 does not indicate a secret coming: “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command.” The Lord coming with “a loud command” certainly does not indicate a secret coming. Matthew 24:31 indicates a loud command as well; “And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call.” Mark 13:26 agrees with this as well: “At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.” Luke 21:26 also happens to mention the exact opposite of a secret coming: “Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.” The idea of a secret coming in the clouds seems to be absurd.

After looking at the different eschatological views of amillennialism, postmillennialism, postribulationalism, midtribulationalism and pretribulationalism, it appears that amillennialism has the fewest flaws. The main point to remember is that eschatology is not to be the focal point to Christianity. Not even close. The main point of Christianity is Jesus Christ Himself.

[1] Sauer, Val J. Jr., The Eschatology Handbook. (John Knox Press, Atlanta, 1981), p. 3.


[2] Acts 1:11 (NIV).


[3] Revelation 20:1-6 (NIV).


[4] Bauckham, Richard. Must Christian Eschatology be Millenarian? A Response to Jűrgen Moltmann. Eschatology in the Bible & Technology: Evangelical Essays at the Dawn of a New Millennium. Eds. Brower, Kent E. and Mark W. Elliot. (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1997), p. 265.


[5] Matthew 6:31-33 (NIV).


[6] Luther’s Small Catechism. (Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, MO., 1986), p. 140.


[7] Sauer, p. 83.


[8] Bickel, Bruce and Stan Jantz, Guide to the End of the World. (Harvest House Publishers. Eugene, Oregon, 1999), p. 142.


[9] Ibid, p. 143.


[10] Sauer, p. 79.


[11] Kyle, Richard, The Last Days are Here Again: A History of the End Times, (Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, 1998), p. 188.


[12] 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NIV).


[13] Daniel 9:24-27 (NIV).


[14] Halley, Henry H., Halley’s Bible Handbook: 24th Edition, (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1965), p. 349.


[15] Ibid.


[16] Matthew 24:36-42 (NIV).


[17] Matthew 24:21-22 (NIV).







_______________________________________________________
Here's the second essay:


Comparisons on Major Eschatological Views: The Millennium



The doctrine of the last things has become a predominant issue among Christian fellowships in recent decades. It appears that every denomination has a different understanding of what scripture reveal concerning the second advent of Christ. Conflicting views on eschatology have become a persistent source of disagreement among Christians.



The major factor separating the various eschatological understandings among Christians is the millennium. The scriptures concerning the millennium are contained in the book of Revelation, chapter 20:[1]





3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.[2]





This is the only time in the Bible that actually mentions the millennium. According to Halley’s Bible Handbook, “The Lord’s Second Coming is said to be mentioned over three hundred times in the New Testament; but the millennium only here, in this most mysterious part of this most mysterious book in the Bible.”[3] There are three prevalent positions pertaining to the above verses. As defined by Millard J. Erickson, these positions are amillennialism, postmillennialism and premillennialism.[4]



Amillennialism

Amillennialism is the view that the one thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a literal one thousand years. Amillennialists consider the one thousand years as allegorical, representing the period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and His second advent. This proposal holds a substantial amount of weight. The Bible, especially the Apocalypse of John, contains a great quantity of numerical symbolism. Kubke points this out in his paper: “Amillennialists follow the interpretation of 1,000 as ten to the third power indicating completeness. They regard the thousand years as the utter completeness of years. These years represent the complete New Testament era, which includes all of the time until the Second Coming.[5] 2 Peter contains one of the most well known cases of numerical symbolism. “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”[6] This is the view that the Lutheran Church takes on the subject.

Amillennialism has it’s roots in the third and forth centuries. Bruce Bickel and Stan Jantz provide examples of this. As they point out, Origen “disagreed with the idea that the millennium would be a 1000-year paradise on earth. Instead of interpreting the Scriptures literally in these matters of prophecy, he chose to take an allegorical approach.”[7] Bickel and Jantz also point out; “St. Augustine, the bishop of Hippo, taught that Christ had established the millennium at His first coming. His view later became known as amillennialism.”[8]

There are many other renowned scholars, including Lutheran scholars, who agree with the proposal that the one thousand years represents the New Testament era. Included in these scholars are individuals such as Adoph Hoenecke, Dr. Francis Pieper and Dr. John Theodore Mueller, who often paraphrased Pieper. Dr. Mueller blatantly stresses his stance on the subject of millennialism in Christian Dogmatics; “The passages which are usually quoted in its favor do not predict a millennial reign at all, but describe the spiritual glory of the Church of the New Testament, which is brought about thought the coming of the Messiah and the preaching of the Gospel throughout the whole world.”[9] Hoenecke agrees with this teaching and points out many of the early Church fathers that did as well, as he states in Evangelical Lutheran Dogmatics; “The presbyter Caius, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria were opponents of millennialism…Our fathers, among them Luther, and also our (Lutheran) confessions reject millennialism decidedly.”(brackets are mine)[10]



Postmillennialism

Postmillennialism holds to the view that Christ will return after the millennium is concluded. The millennium has commonly been viewed as an indeterminate period of time, not a literal one thousand years. Postmillennialists generally believe that the Church is in the process of building the Kingdom of God right now by being a positive influence in society. After such a Kingdom is established, Christ will then return.

Postmillennialism seems to have began in the forth century. According to Erickson, Tyconius, an African Donatist developed an early version of postmillennialism. Although controversial, as he set a date for Christ to return in the year 380, he did lay the foundation for postmillennialism.[11] Postmillennialism did not become popular at this time, as amillennialism was the common understanding among Christians. It was not until the eighteenth century that postmillennialism would become a popular doctrine. Bickel and Jantz not that “Jonathon Edwards, the famous eighteenth century American preacher, believed and taught that the various religious revivals, such as the great awakening in the 1740s, would bring about the millennium, after which Christ would return.”[12] Postmillennialism would be a popular teaching until after the First World War, when many Christians felt that society was degenerating.



Premillennialism

It was around this time that premillennialism began to take the spotlight in many churches. Often called dispensational premillennialism or dispensationalism, the teaching is that Christ will return to Earth prior to a literal one thousand year millennium. Jesus will then physically rule over the Earth for one thousand years. Satan will be let loose after the thousand years for a short time and then the Last Judgment will occur.[13]

Premillennialism is commonly said to have begun in the second century. The idea of premillennialism was put forth by Iranaeus. “Iranaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, taught that there would be a literal Antichrist who would rule the earth for three and a half years, followed by the return of Christ and a literal millennium on earth that would resemble the perfect conditions in the Garden of Eden.”[14] This view lasted until the fifth century, when, according to Thomas D. Ice, “the amillennialism of Origen and Augustine had virtually eliminated all traces of premillennial teaching. This continued until shortly after the Reformation.”[15] It was in the nineteenth century when premillennialism had it’s ‘second coming’ with the help of John Nelson Darby.[16]

Premillennialism has taken three main forms. These are postribulationalism, midtribulationalism, and pretribulationalism. Premillennialism teaches that there will be a seven-year tribulation, which will occur directly before Christ returning to usher in the millennium. During the time of the tribulation, an event known as the rapture is believed to occur by premillennialists. The rapture is found in 1 Thessalonians:





13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.[17]





This rapture is believed to be a secret meeting with Christ and His Church in the clouds before He makes His Second Advent. Postribulationalists believe that this rapture will occur after the tribulation.[18] Midtribulationalists believe that the rapture will occur at the midpoint of the seven years. Pretribulationalists, the most populous of the three, believe that Christ will rapture His people immediately prior to the seven years. These three groups base their belief as to when the rapture will occur on their interpretations of various Scripture passages, primarily within the books of Daniel and Revelation.

The study of eschatology can prove to be very frustrating and time consuming. This is because each view is based totally upon Scripture. The difference is how Scripture is interpreted and the mind-set of the individual studying the subject. When one understands the scripture in a literal sense, they will be inclined to understand the premillennial view best. On the contrary, when one reads Scripture in a figurative sense, amillennialism appears to hold the most water. When studying eschatology, however, one must not lose focus on the main point of the Bile. This is the good news of Christ and the salvation of mankind by Him dying on the cross and rising again.





Footnotes

[1] Kubke, Roland F., Revelation 20:3-6 and the Millennial Debate (Concordia Lutheran Seminary, Edmonton, Alberta, 1988).


[2] Revelation 20:3-6 (NIV)


[3] Halley’s Bible Handbook: 24th Edition, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1965), p. 734.


[4] Erickson, Millard J., Contemporary Opinions in Eschatology: A Study of the Millennium, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House Company, 1977).


[5] Kubke, p. 51.


[6] 2 Peter 3:8b (NIV)


[7] Bickel, Bruce and Stan Jantz, Bruce and Stan’s Guide to the End of the World, (Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, Oregon, 1997), p. 128.


[8] Ibid.


[9] Mueller, John Theodore, Christian Dogmatics, (Concordia Publishing House: St. Louis, Missouri, 1934), p. 622.


[10] Hoenecke, Adolf, Evangelical Lutheran Dogmatics IV, (Northwestern Publishing House: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 1999), p. 296.


[11] Mueller, p. 58-59.


[12] Bickel, p. 129.


[13] Revelation 20:3-15


[14] Bickel, p. 127-128.


[15] Ice, Thomas D., Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret MacDonald, (Bibliotheca Sacra; Ed. Roy B. Zuck; Dallas Seminary Press: Dallas, Texas, April-June, 1990), p. 166.


[16] Kolb, Robert, The Christian Faith, (Concordia Publishing House: St. Louis, MO., 1993), p. 294.


[17] 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NIV)


[18] Lea, Thomas, D., A Survey of the Doctrine of the Return of Christ in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, (Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society; Ed. Ronald Youngblood; Bethel Theological Seminary West: San Diego, California, June 1986), p. 173.

Last edited by Breetai; 26th December 2004 at 07:18 PM.
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Unread 27th December 2004, 06:43 AM
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Quote
After looking at the different eschatological views of amillennialism, postmillennialism, postribulationalism, midtribulationalism and pretribulationalism, it appears that amillennialism has the fewest flaws.
End Quote

Please it is riddle with flaws ........................I take it you are Amill.......................were is the Historicalist in all of this


Quote
Premillennialism is commonly said to have begun in the second century. The idea of premillennialism was put forth by Iranaeus. “Iranaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, taught that there would be a literal Antichrist who would rule the earth for three and a half years, followed by the return of Christ and a literal millennium on earth that would resemble the perfect conditions in the Garden of Eden.
End Quote

No Amill was thought up in the second century......and Justin makes it clear that in about 150 Ad it is a new thing considered a Heresy………….

Medieval Sourcebook:
Justin Martyr: Second Apology
[Dialogue with Trypho]

Chap. LXXX.--THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS.

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly,(1) that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware;(2) but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.(3) For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth],(4) and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristae,(5)Gelilaeans, Hellenists,(6) Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(7) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged,[as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

I just love the way the Amill crowd loves to switch things around Amill was thought up in the second century and in the fourth century they went around killing anyone who disagreed. Over Time the Premill became almost extinct .........................But the TRUTH can not be murdered out of existance.

Here is the beginings of amill

18: And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;19: I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20: Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22: Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

If you do not trust my words......................I call on everyone to do the research ......do not be fooled.

Last edited by Just The Facts; 27th December 2004 at 07:26 AM.
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You quoted me here when I was talking about premil...

Quote
Premillennialism is commonly said to have begun in the second century. The idea of premillennialism was put forth by Iranaeus. “Iranaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, taught that there would be a literal Antichrist who would rule the earth for three and a half years, followed by the return of Christ and a literal millennium on earth that would resemble the perfect conditions in the Garden of Eden.
End Quote

...and then you responded by coming up with something from far of in left field.
No Amill was thought up in the second century......and Justin makes it clear that in about 150 Ad it is a new thing considered a Heresy………….
I think that says alot about what you have to say.
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Unread 27th December 2004, 05:55 PM
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Hi Breetia

You are right it does have allot to say..............................I am saying the exact same thing Justin said .........AMill is in error...............I am also saying that this doctrine was thought up in the second century and then FORCED UPON everyone else for the next 1300 years upon pain of death.

I am saying you are mistaken in your paper.................on the premil origins ................................................. while the earliest writings we have on Premill may be from the second century.........Justin makes it clear that pemill is the original doctrine and amill the new kid on the block.

The logical Conclusion is that Pre Mill is the Doctrine of the Apostles.
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Unread 27th December 2004, 06:15 PM
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I am also saying that this doctrine was thought up in the second century and then FORCED UPON everyone else for the next 1300 years upon pain of death.
It might have been thought up then, but I think it's extreme to say that amil. was forced upon everyone for fear of death. The institution which carried amil was forced upon people, but not amil itself.

while the earliest writings we have on Premill may be from the second century.........Justin makes it clear that pemill is the original doctrine and amill the new kid on the block.

The logical Conclusion is that Pre Mill is the Doctrine of the Apostles.
That proves nothing at all. At best we can say that premil may have been the doctrine of the apostles. Even if it was, they may have been mistaken. Christ did not return in their generation as they thought that He would. They were not correct in their eschatology.

For the record, I am not amil. and I do learn towards premil., although I am not dogmatic on it.
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