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  #51  
Old 3rd December 2004, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ondoher
Is suspect you think that PE proposes that evolution happens rapidly. It doesn't. It proposes that compared to times of stasis, it happens rapidly. Like on the order of tens of thousands of years, and on small, isolated, populations. That's not rapid, just relatively so.
PE? and no, I tend to shy away from specific statements about what I believe or don't, what I try to do is tear down compartmentalized skepticism. Introduce things which at least draw into question a person's beliefs. If I have ever done anything which jepordizes this I apologize whole heartedly.

Again, my comments about Gould and gradualism related to a specific post stating that gradualism could stand on its own as an evolutionary form, as everyone who hatily responded to my post quickly noted, Guild and his buddies do not refute gradualism but say that it cannot be the soul mechanistic timeframe. Please don't make me say this again. I was refuting a specific post which seemed to suggest that gradualism by itself was a valid evolutionary concept.
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  #52  
Old 3rd December 2004, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by informedforGod
PE? and no, I tend to shy away from specific statements about what I believe or don't, what I try to do is tear down compartmentalized skepticism. Introduce things which at least draw into question a person's beliefs. If I have ever done anything which jepordizes this I apologize whole heartedly.

Again, my comments about Gould and gradualism related to a specific post stating that gradualism could stand on its own as an evolutionary form, as everyone who hatily responded to my post quickly noted, Guild and his buddies do not refute gradualism but say that it cannot be the soul mechanistic timeframe. Please don't make me say this again. I was refuting a specific post which seemed to suggest that gradualism by itself was a valid evolutionary concept.
Could you explain to me what you think 'sudden' means as it is used by Gould and Elridge. Since I haven't seen my replies to your post answered in which I explain the difference between gradual development and 'gradualism'.
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  #53  
Old 3rd December 2004, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by informedforGod
I was refuting a specific post which seemed to suggest that gradualism by itself was a valid evolutionary concept.
are you mixing gradualism and constant-speedism again?
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  #54  
Old 3rd December 2004, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by informedforGod
(I know you hate ICR, though I don't know why, but I'm after a big picture argument hear, always)
You don't know why we hate ICR? You don't know why we hate an organization that claims to do science, but artificially limits their conclusions from the outset only to those that support a particular, so-called "literal" interpretation of Scripture? You really don't know?

And the "big picture"? How do armchair critiques from a body of scientists already committed to a particular agenda add to the big picture?
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  #55  
Old 3rd December 2004, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by informedforGod
(note, the links I am providing are meant to dispute the validity of these fossils or transitional fossils of the type in general, and at first, some general general ones)

http://www.thematrix.co.uk/texttopic.asp?ID=22
http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...ndNotes23.html
http://www.defendyourfaith.com/fossi...ng-transitions
http://www.bearfabrique.org/evolution/cenozoic
http://duncanlong.com/science-fictio...es/evolut.html
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/evol1998.html
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/descent.html

Pederpes finneyae, a tetrapod from Romer's Gap.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i2/tetrapod.asp


Australopithicus afarensis (Lucy), a chimp-like biped.

http://genesismission.4t.com/transition/primates.htm
http://www.parentcompany.com/creatio...s/essay42.html


Ambulocetus natans, a transitional whale.

http://genesismission.4t.com/transition/cetacean.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...1/chapter5.asp
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-304.htm (I know you hate ICR, though I don't know why, but I'm after a big picture argument hear, always)


Archaeopteryx lithographica, a transitional bird.

http://genesismission.4t.com/transit...iles-birds.htm
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/dinobird.html
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ19.html
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-195.htm
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/20hist07.htm
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr2001/r&r0104a.htm
http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/archaeopteryx.htm

Besides, some creationists (like Hugh Ross) claim a transitional fossil record actually supports (or at least does not discredit) creation.
can you not spam with links please? It is important that you get an understanding of the issues involved. posting links does not demonstrate an understanding, since those links themselves may well be full of errors.

I will just whip over a few points from a randomly picked site on your list

http://genesismission.4t.com/transit...iles-birds.htm

One particularly large difference between reptiles and birds is in the structure of their lungs. Reptiles have bellow like lungs and living birds have tube like lungs. There is no way for a reptile's bellow like lung to evolve into a bird's tube like lung, and have a living animal in-between.
wrong, it is actually possible to have partial flow through lungs, that could develop from tube lungs with no detrimental intermediates. granted they would not be as effective as flow through, but they would be a bit flow through and better than tube lungs for things like thermoregulation.

It is commonly claimed that feathers evolved from scales, but their differences make such a claim ridiculous.
This is misleading. It is not common scientific thought at all that feathers evolved from scales. alot of normal people might think that feathers developed from scales, but they are wrong.

Fossil order predicted by dinosaur to bird Evolution.

<table>

Real order according to Evolutionary date methods.

<table>
this doesn't present a problem, since evolution does not require all ancestral species of the various basal species to become extinct. This is just the evolutionary equivalent of a grandfather outliving his son and grandson, but not his great grandson.

Archaeopteryx was a fully flying and perching bird.
how do they determine that it is a bird, when it is replete with reptillian features? perching is highly questionable (the "perching" argument is based on the reversed hallux seen in the fossils), since the inverted hallux is most likely the result of how it died and not it's position in life, as a detailed analysis of the fossil shows (Middleton 2001-3). Archaeopteryx had a flat sternum, archaeopteryx had teeth and so on.

the entire site just classifies anything with feathers as a bird, regardless of the amount of reptillian features that it has, and believe me, it is seriously glossing over the reprillian features. These animals are by definition transitional, since they are a mosaic of reptillian and avian features.

the site continually presses on the a evolved from B point of view, when this is never claimed by scientists. we can never know if A is a direct descendent of B, however we can show familial relationships, similarities and from these infer the evolutionary pathway.

------

so from this brief analysis, you can see that by posting the link, you have not really offered anything to the discussion, and what is more, you probably didn't know anything about the points that I have just rebutted. It is far better to actually write things yourself, with suitable backup from sources, preferably ensuring that you fully understand the issues at hand, and know both sides of the argument being presented. Many of the sources you presented are also well out of date

now lets have a look at

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-195.htm

now here I will just post a response from a real expert on this stuff. I cannot post where I got this response as linking or even naming the forum is apparently in violation of the forum's rules, however if you wish for a link, feel free to pm me privately.

(I am awaiting a reply from a moderator as to whether it is ok to give out a link to this site or not, even privately, and will not give the link out until it is cleared. If it is indeed against the rules then I will not give out the link)

in answer to the claim

Archaeopteryx had an impressive array of features that immediately identify it as a bird, whatever else may be said about it. It had perching feet. Several of its fossils bear the impression of feathers. These feathers were identical to those of modern birds in every respect. The primary feathers of non-flying birds are distinctly different from those of flying birds. Archaeopteryx had the feathers of flying birds,2 had the basic pattern and proportions of the avian wing, and an especially robust furcula (wishbone).
found on the site above, the scientist responds:

This is strange. Wishbones, or furculae, are known in a host of non-avian dinosaurs. Feathers are known in a host of non-avian dinosaurs. Given some interesting new evidence (e.g. Middleton 2001, 2003), its now pretty clear that Archaeopteryx lacked a reverse hallux (which is what I presume Gish means by "perching feet"). None of these things are suitable to diagnose Archaeopteryx as anything other than a maniraptoran theropod.

Questions about the homologies of certain characters (Gish brings up identity of its manal digits and the degree of opisthopuby) are addressed by myself <edit to remove link>. To quote myself:

Following Alberch and Gale (1983, 1985), Hinchliffe and Hecht (1984), Hinchliffe (1985, 1997) Martin (1991), Tarsitano (1991), Hecht and Hecht (1994), Feduccia (1996, 1998, 1999, 2003), and Burke and Feduccia (1997), it is claimed that the digital identity of the avian manus is II, III and IV, as opposed to the I, II and III traditionally assumed for theropods. Originally proposed as an extension of "Morse's Law," which claimed the patterns of amniote digital reduction always occur in the lateral most digits (I and V; Morse 1872), recent embryological studies have argued essentially the same.

In response, critics have traditionally charged that it was not entirely clear that this amniote "ground plan", as Chatterjee (1998) called it, so essential to the embryological argument's identification of visable anlagen as II, III, IV and V was applicable to birds. As he noted, salamanders first develop digit II, and although Burke and Feduccia (1998) are certainly correct that salamanders are not amniotes, it was not entirely out of the question to assume avian/theropod development begins with digit III (as per Shubin, 1994; Garner and Thomas, 1998), and is similarly extraordinary.

Although these doubts as to the identity of visable anlagen are still expressed (for example, Padian 2001), the position is growing incresingly untenable. Studies by Larsson & Wagner (2002) and Kundrat et al (2002) on Gallus, and the preparation of embryos of Struthio camelus by Feduccia & Nowicki (2002) have all identified the elusive fifth (digit I) anlagen. Other more classical lines of evidence, from the position of the pisiform (Hinchcliffe 1985), to the structure of the stereotypical chondrogenic "Y" (Burke & Feduccia 1997, Feduccia & Nowicki 2002), consistently support the identification of condensations as II, III and IV.

As clear as the above evidence may be, some authors (e.g. Galis et al. 2003) have expressed doubt, not about the digital identity of the avian manus, but of the non-avian theropod manus. Herrerasaurids, recently classified as basal theropods, are so plesiomorphic (specifically with regards to the medial wall of the acetabulum, elongated cervicals three and four, lack of epipophyses, development of MT I and IV, the distally rod-like ischium, and the subnarial foramen) that their phylogenetic position would more properly be described as basal saurischian, if not basal Dinosauria or even some sort of dinosauromorph, making their manal digit reduction possibly independent of Theropoda proper, and their sacral count a case of parallelism (Sues in Dodson et al, 1990; Novas, 1994; Sereno, 1994; Fraser et al, 2002; Galis et al, 2003; contra Feduccia 2003; Larrsson and Wagner 2003). Similar difficulties arise with regards to Eoraptor (Galis et al, 2003). Because there are, as of yet, no clearly unambiguous basal theropods retaining two vestigial manal digits, its entirely possible that the vestige retained in ceratosaurs represents V, not IV as traditionally assumed, having already lost I. In this view, both non-avian and avian theropod digits are numbered II, III and IV.

A third possibility championed by Gauthier and Wagner (1999) is that avian digits indeed develop from condensations II, III and IV, theropod digits are indeed I, II and III, but at some point before the derivation of Coelurosauria a homeotic transformation occurred such that condensation CII developed digit DI, condensation CIII developed digit DII, and so forth. The possibility is intriguing given the disconnect between morphogenesis and identity seen in other body segments (Burke et al, 1995), and recent work by Dahn & Fallon (2000) which has shown that the conserved patterns of development do not necessarly dictate digital identity in particular. Very simply, it shows that the number condensation a digit develops from does not necessarly correspond to a digit homologous with that number. The only major shortcoming is that there is no obvious evolutionary impetus for such a transformation. In any case, there is just not enough evidence to level convincing charges of digital pseudo-homology.

About opistopuby I wrote:

The extreme degree of pubic retroversion restored in Archaeopteryx by Martin (1983, 1991) and cited by others (for example, Ruben et al, 1997), in which the pubis is nearly parallel with the ischium is both unsupported by earlier specimens and demonstrably incorrect in light of newer ones. Because the ***** are disarticulated in the only two specimens (London and Berlin) showing such an extreme degree of opisthopuby, this caudal orientation could very well have been achieved postmortem, as forcefully argued by (among others) Wellenhofer (1985). This was later conclusivly demonstrated by the specimens in which the pelvis was well preserved. According to a recent survey:

"The well-preserved pelvis in the Munich specimen (Wellnhofer, 1993) confirmed that the pubis was directed nearly vertically downward as in Unenlagia (Novas and Puerta, 1997) and Rahonavis (Forster et al, 1998). The pubis was only slightly retroverted, forming a cranial angle of 110d with the long axis of the ilium (Wellnhofer, 1985)." (Elzanowski, 2002, p. 144)

With opisthopuby often exceeding 110 degrees in various dromaeosaurids, its actually quite accurate to say that some non-avian dinosaurs were more opisthopubic than the basal bird itself.

"Protoavis" is addressed by <edit to remove link>

Some other claims included:

1) Archaeopteryx could fly: Yes, it probably could -- but not very well. This hardly establishes your point.

2) Feathers are not highly modified scales: This is correct as well. It does not follow, however, that feathers did not evolve; the current concensus theory, that of Prum 1999, Prum & Brush 2002, etc, does not suggest this is the case. Instead, feathers are seen as morphological novelties.

3) Archaeopteryx is a hoax: You some to disagree with this one, which is a start.

4) The IAC claimed it is not a transitional: This is news to me. I own the proceedings, so be sure to tell me who argued this (preferably with a page number).

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Old 3rd December 2004, 09:18 AM
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Now granted I am commiting the sin that I asked you not to here, i.e. mere quotation of someone elses work rather than writing it in my own words, however I am doing this with a point in mind; as you can see, the trivial dismissals of these matters presented by the links you gave clearly do not meet rigorous academic standards and effective argumentation of the points at hand, whereas the point above, as typed out from memory from someone who really does know his stuff is clearly complex and detailed.
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Old 3rd December 2004, 03:40 PM
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I originally had a much more detailed response to this, but, alas, Explorer blew up on me.

A general comment first, It is much easier if you make your arguments in your own words, instead of just dumping a bunch or URL's into the post. Creationists sites are frequently full of the same misconceptions and misinformation, and trying to weigh down the conversation with this much redundancy will not help us get to the botom of the argument.

Originally Posted by informedforGod
My original response pointed out the amount of out of context quoting in these links, and in particular of people like Gould, Patterson and Raup.

Here is information on a Gould quote: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quot...3.html#quote50.

Here is information on the Patterson quote: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html.

Here is information on a common Raup quote: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quot...2.html#quote25 .

Note that in many of these instances, the original quote is not about evidence of transitionals in the fossil record, but more about gradualism.

I just want to make the general observation here that what creationists think should be expected from the fossil record, and what science actually expects are very different.

If common ancestry is true, then all species are related to each other in a single family tree, called a phylogeny. If that is true, then there must have exited species that had diagnostic character traits that were intermediate between an ancestor taxa and its descendents. Also, because of the branching nature of evolution, there may have existed a number of taxa that were not in the general line of descent, that also displayed these same character traits.

Given the above, we can have some reasonable expectations of the fossil record. The first is that fossils that are found should fit within the overall phylogeny of living things. We should also be able to place these new species close to general lines of descent based on their shared traits, their intermediate traits, plus any specific derived traits unique to the species.

Paleontology fills in this family tree when new species are identified, and this frequently results in the addition of new branches, or the shuffling around of branches as relationships become clearer.

The fossil record is by no means complete, and as such, there are some rather large gaps where lines of descent are essentially linear. Even in these cases, synapomorphies support the general phylogenic relationsips between species, but there is a clear lack of refinement of the more derived traits.

There are some areas of the phylogeny, such as humans, horses and cetaceans, where we have a wealth of data, and other places, such as early tetrapods, where the picture is less clear. To date, there have been no fossils that are inconsistent with our current picture of evolution.

Originally Posted by informedforGod
This link was a little more interesting than most of the others. I will highlight a few of the misleading points in it, here:
In contrast, there are no novel mutations or genetic alleles that specifically characterize any one human race from another. More recent studies have confirmed the early work, likewise showing that human genetic diversity is far less than what one would predict from Darwinian theory.




I am going to assume the author meant the Modern Synthesis, as Darwin new nothing of genetics, and certainly not DNA. The primary problem with this is that the modern sysnthesis would not make such a prediction. In fact, in light of punctuated equillibrium (PE), which suggests that speciation happens in small, isolated populations, we would expect a recent speciation to create just such a genetic botle neck.







Then there is this quote:
Although the 3.2 million year old fossil "Lucy" (Australopithecus afarensis), was said to be bipedal, her 2.6 million year old descendent, Australopithecus africanus, was indisputably arboreal.




The cited reference does not support his claim that africanus was "indisputabley arboreal" and the implied claim that it was therefore not bipedal.







In fact, this reference is really nothing more than a news item, and here is the relevent text from the cited source:
And at the recent meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists, researchers used these bones to show that the body proportions of africanus were more apelike--and perhaps more suited to a life in the trees--than those of afarensis, its presumed ancestor




Note, it indicates that the fossil was perhaps more suited for life in the trees. Hardly the "indisputably arboreal" claim we were led to believe.







Here is another quote from the paper:
The fossil record indicates an accumulation of relatively rapid shifts in successive species, and certainly not any kind of gradualistic changes.




This is interesting, but given what is actually expected from the fossil record, it is surely not a problem for evolution. Nobody expects to have a fossilized version of everything that ever lived. The point is, all the fossils we find fit within the standard phylogeny, and these fossils help to fill that in nicely.



That's enough of that.

Originally Posted by informedforGod
Pederpes finneyae, a tetrapod from Romer's Gap.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i2/tetrapod.asp

Haha, I love this quote from that link:
‘Although the entire organism is intermediate in structure, it’s the combination of structures that is intermediate, not the nature of the structures themselves. Each of these organisms appears to be a fully functional organism full of fully functional structures.’




It is like creationists expect transitional species to be some sort of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] monster that could not possibly survive in the wild. This is absurd, all successful species are successful because they are adapted to their environment. Not because they happen to be part way to some future goal.



Above and beyond that, of course, this does not address the fossil in question. The words "Pederpes finneyae" do not appear anywhere in this article.

Originally Posted by informedforGod
I'll come back to this.
Originally Posted by informedforGod
This is rather interesting, let's compare the image AiG shows of the fossil of Ambulocetus natans (the one on the bottom in this picture is supposed to represent what was actually found):


to the actual fossil itself:


It looks like they left out some of the fossil, doesn't it? Like the pelvis, and many of the vertebra. I wonder why they would do that.


I'll come back to this too.

Originally Posted by informedforGod
Besides, some creationists (like Hugh Ross) claim a transitional fossil record actually supports (or at least does not discredit) creation.
That's an odd claim.
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Old 3rd December 2004, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ondoher
I originally had a much more detailed response to this, but, alas, Explorer blew up on me.
People still use IE? Please run, don't walk to http://www.mozilla.org/
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Old 3rd December 2004, 05:13 PM
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Getting back to the two I skipped:
Originally Posted by informedforGod
Neither of these links works, I'll assume you had no problem until you show me otherwise.

Originally Posted by informedforGod
Archaeopteryx lithographica, a transitional bird.

http://genesismission.4t.com/transit...iles-birds.htm
This link mentiones Protoavis as a bird precursor. It should be noted that most paleontologists consider this to be a chimera:
http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/The...is_controversy.





Other than this, it makes some bold claims without references, such as this one:
Archaeopteryx was a fully flying and perching bird.




Archaeopteryx is classified as a bird, that's true. It wasn't a perching bird, as it lacked the proper anatomy. It also, however, had a staggering number of traits found in earlier dinosaurs. Ignoring those traits doesn't make for a very convincing argument.



Originally Posted by informedforGod
This link makes a big deal out of digit homology. This link will address this argument far better than I can: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dino...velopment.html

Originally Posted by informedforGod
This link claims that Archaeopteryx was a fraud. Now this is an interesting new argument given your above arguments that Archy is clearly a bird. Is your argument that Archaeopteryx was clearly a bird or it was clearly a dinosaur with pasted on wings? You should pick a position and stick with it. At any rate, here is a refutation of this hoax claim: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC351.html

Originally Posted by informedforGod
I know that this link was addressed by God Fearing Atheist in another thread.

I'm going to stop here. What I need you to do is start to address the actual data, and explain why Archaeopteryx does not fit the defintion of a transitional fossil. And be specific.
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