Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Discussion and Debate > Physical & Life Sciences > Creation & Evolution
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 27th November 2004, 06:52 PM
Valkhorn's Avatar
the Antifloccinaucinihilipili ficationist

33 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 15th June 2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,071
Blessings: 110,662
Reps: 887,773,088,074,328 (power: 887,773,088,088)
Valkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond repute
Valkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond repute
A series of questions for those against evolution

I would like to pose a series of questions for those of you out there who feel that evolution is not the best explaination for how life appears as it does today. If you do agree with evolution, don't answer, just wait on the sidelines to see the responses

1. How old do you believe the Earth to be? If you believe it is 4.6 billion years old, please go on to question number 2. If you believe it is young, please explain evidence by submitting at least one cited, peer-reviewed piece evidence outside of the Bible, and skip the rest of the questions below.



2. If you believe the Earth is 4.6 billion years old -
a) Do you believe Earth's climate was constant during that time period

b) Do you believe the geography and topography (how the continents were arranged or shaped) were constant during that time period?
c) Do you feel that life was only on Earth for a very short period of time?

If you answered yes to a) or b) or c) above, I would like you to cite one piece of peer-reviewed evidence outside of the Bible to substantiate your claims.


Now, I would like you to consider the following question.

3. For question number three, just entertain this notion, do not give reasons why you do not feel the earth is that old, etc. Just consider a planet with a long age, a long change in climate and geography, and life existing on said planet over many changes in climate and geography. Would evolution take place, and would it be a viable explaination?

Thank you, the questions are now over.

What I am doing is figuring out if most of the reasons why people do not agree with evolution are based on whether or not they see the earth as ancient. My guess is that it would be very hard to disagree with evolution if you were given the evidence that the Earth is very old, and that life has been on this planet for a long time. Especially when you couple it with the obvious facts that climate and geography over 4.6 billion years has always changed.

If my guess is right, I'll probably start with part two of this question and answer session
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 27th November 2004, 11:04 PM
JohnR7's Avatar
Legend

62 Gender: Male Married Faith: Pentecostal Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 9th February 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 25,401
Blessings: 256,520
Reps: 12,682 (power: 0)
JohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to behold
JohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to behold
Originally Posted by Valkhorn
What I am doing is figuring out if most of the reasons why people do not agree with evolution are based on whether or not they see the earth as ancient. My guess is that it would be very hard to disagree with evolution if you were given the evidence that the Earth is very old, and that life has been on this planet for a long time. Especially when you couple it with the obvious facts that climate and geography over 4.6 billion years has always changed.
I think your guess would be wrong. OEC has been around a long time. The evidence for an old earth is many, many times stronger than the evidence for the theory of evolution. Also the evidence for a old earth is a lot more obvious to someone that is not educated. For example the retrovirus evidence in the DNA may seem to be convincing to you. But to a lot of people, it is evidence they can not verify, and it give them the feeling that they are being duked.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 28th November 2004, 02:50 AM
Ryal Kane's Avatar
Senior Veteran

34 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Country: New Zealand Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 21st April 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 3,832
Blessings: 2,069,286
Reps: 66,791,999,935,888,544 (power: 66,791,999,935,902)
Ryal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond repute
Ryal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond reputeRyal Kane has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by JohnR7
I think your guess would be wrong. OEC has been around a long time. The evidence for an old earth is many, many times stronger than the evidence for the theory of evolution. Also the evidence for a old earth is a lot more obvious to someone that is not educated. For example the retrovirus evidence in the DNA may seem to be convincing to you. But to a lot of people, it is evidence they can not verify, and it give them the feeling that they are being duked.
Could you give links to some of this evidence?
__________________
From childhoods hour I have not been
as others were. I have not seen
as others saw. I could not bring
my passions from a common spring.
From the same source I have not taken
my sorrow. I could not awaken
my heart to joy at the same tone.
All I loved, I loved alone. Edgar Allen Poe
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 28th November 2004, 02:56 AM
Regular Member

29 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Country: Canada Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 27th November 2004
Posts: 111
Blessings: 161,112
Reps: 149 (power: 0)
Valhalla has a spectacular aura aboutValhalla has a spectacular aura about
Good post Valk, this should be interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 28th November 2004, 01:15 PM
Valkhorn's Avatar
the Antifloccinaucinihilipili ficationist

33 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 15th June 2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,071
Blessings: 110,662
Reps: 887,773,088,074,328 (power: 887,773,088,088)
Valkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond repute
Valkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks, Valhalla... I was chewing over this concept so I thought I'd try to isolate and see if my hunch was right...

John,

I think your guess would be wrong. OEC has been around a long time. The evidence for an old earth is many, many times stronger than the evidence for the theory of evolution. Also the evidence for a old earth is a lot more obvious to someone that is not educated. For example the retrovirus evidence in the DNA may seem to be convincing to you. But to a lot of people, it is evidence they can not verify, and it give them the feeling that they are being duked.
Actually you're quite misunderstanding of what I'm trying to say. I wasn't proving to you that indeed the earth is 4.6 billion years old. (Which it is but that's besides the point). I'm just trying to get you to think about it for a little bit to entertain the notion, and think about how climate and geography were not always constant througout Earth's history. Just entertain the notion, think through it hypothetically.

Now, let me ask you, John, how old is the Earth? And, what evidence for it do you have outside of the Bible? Remember to CITE different sources.

If you do not cite sources we cannot tell if what you say is true or not. So if you wan't people to believe you, substantiate your claims.

Also the evidence for a old earth is a lot more obvious to someone that is not educated.
Actually the opposite is true. It is often the lesser educated people who think that the Earth is young. Only when they attain an education do they often realize that the Earth is actually very old. Even if they were told the earth was old and they believe it, they will only know WHY it is the truth until after they learn about it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 28th November 2004, 03:35 PM
RVincent's Avatar
Onions make me gassy.

45 Gender: Male Faith: Non-Denominational Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 16th December 2003
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 1,378
Blessings: 144,607
Reps: 2,561 (power: 14)
RVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of light
Originally Posted by Valkhorn
1. How old do you believe the Earth to be? If you believe it is 4.6 billion years old, please go on to question number 2. If you believe it is young, please explain evidence by submitting at least one cited, peer-reviewed piece evidence outside of the Bible, and skip the rest of the questions below.
That's me...billions of years.

Originally Posted by Valkhorn
2. If you believe the Earth is 4.6 billion years old -


a) Do you believe Earth's climate was constant during that time period

b) Do you believe the geography and topography (how the continents were arranged or shaped) were constant during that time period?

c) Do you feel that life was only on Earth for a very short period of time?

If you answered yes to a) or b) or c) above, I would like you to cite one piece of peer-reviewed evidence outside of the Bible to substantiate your claims.
A) Evidence would seem to indicate an equal climate all over.
Evidence: Mammoths have been found frozen in an area where it is too cold for buttercups to grow. Yet buttercup leaves (some say seeds only) were in their mouth (stomach). http://www.atlantisquest.com/Paleontology.html

Petrified trees in areas where they do not grow today:
http://www.cst.cmich.edu/users/dietr...siliferous.htm
B) Evidence would seem to indicate that there were various upheavals.
Evidence: take any geological history class. Or here is one example: http://www.wales-hotel.co.uk/geology/
C) Not sure what you mean. Again, any geological history class should tell you that species have been wiped out, new ones come along, they get wiped out...etc.

3. For question number three, just entertain this notion, do not give reasons why you do not feel the earth is that old, etc. Just consider a planet with a long age, a long change in climate and geography, and life existing on said planet over many changes in climate and geography. Would evolution take place, and would it be a viable explaination?
If evolution were true, it would be an ongoing process.

Notice, that the animals in the "evolution charts" move from one form to the next, but there are no "in-betweens".

For example, the "evolution" of the horse:



In the above chart, did the Epihippus just give birth to the Mesohippus?

If not, where are the animals that developed from the Epihippus to the Mesohippus?

Shouldn't we see fossil evidence of an animal whose evolution has made it 90% Epihippus and only 10% Mesohippus?

And then 80% / 20%?

And then 70 % / 30%

Etc, until we reach 100% Mesohippus?

They are not there. They do not exist. Someone had a bad burrito for lunch...(me, actually )
__________________
(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Last edited by RVincent; 28th November 2004 at 03:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 28th November 2004, 04:51 PM
RVincent's Avatar
Onions make me gassy.

45 Gender: Male Faith: Non-Denominational Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 16th December 2003
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 1,378
Blessings: 144,607
Reps: 2,561 (power: 14)
RVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of light
Here's something else for evolutionists to answer.

Most believe that modern humans did not exist until a couple of hundred thousand years ago. But look at this footprint (found in New Mexico, I belive it is on display at the state University):



Know how old it is?

FIFTY MILLION YEARS.

This is not the only footprint found in stone. At Dinosaur State Park, in Glenrose, Texas, there are actual "human-type" footprints that have been discovered, which walked across real dinosaur tracks. More "human-type" footprints have also been located along with dinosaur tracks at the Thayers Museum, at Dinosaur Flats in Canyon Lake, Texas. Dinosaurs became extinct about 65 million years ago, according to scientists.

We were made in the image of God and the angels (the Elohim). Their feet look just like ours, and they walked around, before the rebellion.
__________________
(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 28th November 2004, 04:58 PM
Ondoher's Avatar
Veteran

Faith: Atheist Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 17th September 2004
Posts: 1,847
Blessings: 89,565
Reps: 1,588 (power: 12)
Ondoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of lightOndoher is a glorious beacon of light
Originally Posted by RVincent
If evolution were true, it would be an ongoing process.
And it is.

Originally Posted by RVincent
Notice, that the animals in the "evolution charts" move from one form to the next, but there are no "in-betweens".
Yes, every time we find a transitional, it creates two more gaps.

Originally Posted by RVincent
For example, the "evolution" of the horse:



In the above chart, did the Epihippus just give birth to the Mesohippus?

If not, where are the animals that developed from the Epihippus to the Mesohippus?
Dead. Not everything that ever lived is fossilized. Not every thing that is fossilized survives. Not everything that is fossilized and survives is unearthed. Not everything that is fossilized, survives, and unearthed is found.

If evolution is not true, why do we have any transitional fossils? In fact, why do all fossils fit neatly into the tree of life?

By the way, i think this image is a more modern representation of horse phylogeny:



Originally Posted by RVincent
Shouldn't we see fossil evidence of an animal whose evolution has made it 90% Epihippus and only 10% Mesohippus?

And then 80% / 20%?

And then 70 % / 30%

Etc, until we reach 100% Mesohippus?
Only if we are lucky.

Originally Posted by RVincent
They are not there. They do not exist. Someone had a bad burrito for lunch...(me, actually )
They may be, we already know more about horse evolution than we used to. No reason to think we'll not learn more.

Try some pepto-bismol.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 28th November 2004, 05:01 PM
RVincent's Avatar
Onions make me gassy.

45 Gender: Male Faith: Non-Denominational Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 16th December 2003
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 1,378
Blessings: 144,607
Reps: 2,561 (power: 14)
RVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of lightRVincent is a glorious beacon of light
Originally Posted by Ondoher
Only if we are lucky.
Very, very lucky.

Originally Posted by Ondoher
If evolution is not true, why do we have any transitional fossils?
Ah, so we have established that they are transitional, and not merely variations of similar animals...?

Originally Posted by Ondoher
Try some pepto-bismol.
I like the berry flavored Rolaids myself...like candy...mmmmmm
__________________
(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 28th November 2004, 05:03 PM
Valkhorn's Avatar
the Antifloccinaucinihilipili ficationist

33 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 15th June 2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,071
Blessings: 110,662
Reps: 887,773,088,074,328 (power: 887,773,088,088)
Valkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond repute
Valkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond reputeValkhorn has a reputation beyond repute
Wow, the old dino footprint next to a human footprint PRATT.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/wilker5.html

The above link talks about the Burdick track, which was later found to be carved by man.

Now I cannot find any sources for that picture yet but on a closer inspection it seems to me that the footprint is NOT a fossil. The dinosaur 'footprint' is indeed a fossil of something. It could be something other than a dinosaur, but what you can see are either fossilized bones - which is not a footprint - or even a hollowed out footprint that was later filled with different sediment which gave it a different color.

As to the human print, it indeed is a print. However, you do not see any bones there. For the lower fossil, a foot or hand was left in the sediment, so the bones became fossilized. If it was a print, sediment would have formed into the print, and would have given it the same colorization as the fossil below it.

In the above 'print', you see no bones, which meant that the foot was once there and is subsequently removed.

I'm no expert in fossils, but it looks like a fake to me. Since there is no discoloration in the print, and it is not a fossil, it is most likely a hoax.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Creation & Evolution

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:34 PM.