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24th November 2004, 05:59 AM
|  | Senior Veteran 49  | | Join Date: 30th December 2002 Location: Western Australia
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Reps: 360 (power: 0) | | | Job and Science Here is an extract from the book of Job: Job 38
( 1) 1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2"Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me. 4"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it? 6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone, 7When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8"Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb; 9When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band; 10When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11When I said,
"This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!' 12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place, 13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16"Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths? 17Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this. 19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place, 20That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home? 21Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great? 22"Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail, 23Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war? 24By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25"Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew? 29From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth? 30The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen. 31"Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32Can you bring out Mazzaroth[1] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs? 33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you? 35Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, "Here we are!'?
36Who has put wisdom in the mind?[ 2]
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
39"Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
41Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?
This passage is God talking to Job. Some of the language is metaphorical. God is using human terms to describe aspects of creation. I've highlighted these thus.
Do you think Job understood that God was using metaphorical language?
There are other parts of the passage where we (and presumebly Job) are given special insight into Creation. I've highlighted them thus. How about this one. I once heard that it was established scientifically that the stars do indeed sing together. I'm not sure of this one. Maybe, maybe it is intended metaphorically.
Are there lessons that can be taken from thins passage on how we should interpret statements made in Scripture regarding creation.
__________________ Micaiah To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr"> And Micaiah said, "As the LORD lives, whatever the LORD says to me, that I will speak." (1 Kings 22:14) | 
24th November 2004, 10:39 AM
|  | Senior Veteran 43  | | Join Date: 16th July 2003 Location: Chesterfield
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Reps: 5,749 (power: 18) | | | Don't be ridiculous. Stars don't sing. Singing involves sound, which can't travel through open space.
__________________ I take a stand on justice, I take a stand on race Gonna take me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face I sing about the hope that’s in me and ask why the poor aren’t fed But if I don’t tow the party line, it’s be better if I were dead I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years
People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum
I'm a liberal backslider, and it sure is a lot of fun -Martyn Joseph | 
24th November 2004, 01:08 PM
|  | Thief in the Night 25  | | Join Date: 30th August 2003 Location: New York
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24th November 2004, 01:13 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 53  | | Join Date: 1st March 2004 Location: North of England
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And all the sons of God shouted for joy
Isn't this, like, a metaphor for angels? (Lucifer was supposed to mean something like "morning star" wasn't it?)
__________________ "Call some place paradise/Kiss it goodbye"
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Liberal Christians do it in context
"Literalism is the first line of defense of a mind that wants to put itself to sleep." Walter A Davis | 
24th November 2004, 03:03 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 35  | | Join Date: 8th August 2004 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Reps: 8,586 (power: 18) | | Originally Posted by Micaiah There are other parts of the passage where we (and presumebly Job) are given special insight into Creation. I've highlighted them thus.
Ummm, I hope you know that the constellations aren't really belts and bears and other things.
With all the bolded and coloured sections, I think it is a pretty safe statement to say that God likes to use metaphor when communicating with humans. | 
24th November 2004, 03:24 PM
|  | Senior Veteran 35  | | Join Date: 8th August 2004 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Reps: 8,586 (power: 18) | | Originally Posted by Micaiah Do you think Job understood that God was using metaphorical language?
I found this interesting article about the history of metaphor in religious language. It appears that metaphor was used well before it was understood as metaphor, suggesting that talking in metaphor was something people simply did without realizing it. METAPHOR IN RELIGIOUS DISCOURSE
Metaphor, which is to be taken here inclusively as any representation of one subject matter in terms literally appropriate not to it but to some different subject matter, has been pervasively present within religious discourse from earliest known times. The explicit recognition of metaphor as metaphor, however, logically presupposes some structured beliefs or theory about what may and may not be considered “literally appropriate” modes of representation when applied to religious subject matter. This additional sophistication, first met explicitly in ancient Greek thought, brings with it the need for exegesis and therefore provides a stimulus for rival theological theories. Consequently, the history of the idea of metaphor in Western religious discourse, involving not only the vital transition to self-consciousness about the “literal-nonliteral” distinction in religion but also the long development of various approaches to religious uses of nonliteral expressions, may illuminate aspects of the theological situation in recent years. I. PRIMARY IMAGES IN RELIGION The Bible, as Western civilization's principal religious book, illustrates the pervasiveness of unselfconscious imagery—only later to be distinguished as metaphor—in primary or nontheoretical religious discourse. There can be no fixed boundaries delineating what is “image” from what is not, as we shall see, since various theories of religious metaphor will make these demarcations at very different points, but a few obvious examples drawn from various contexts of religious usage will give at least preliminary substance to this concept.
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Last edited by Gold Dragon; 24th November 2004 at 03:34 PM.
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24th November 2004, 04:24 PM
|  | Contributor 46  | | Join Date: 16th July 2003
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__________________ In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis. | 
24th November 2004, 05:48 PM
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 | | Join Date: 2nd March 2004 Location: Toronto
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Reps: 12,567,898,174,147,644 (power: 12,567,898,174,166) | | Originally Posted by Micaiah Here is an extract from the book of Job:
This passage is God talking to Job. Some of the language is metaphorical. God is using human terms to describe aspects of creation. I've highlighted these thus.
Do you think Job understood that God was using metaphorical language?
Are there lessons that can be taken from thins passage on how we should interpret statements made in Scripture regarding creation.
I am certain Job understood God was using metaphorical language. But he would also identify what is metaphorical differently than we do. It is highly likely that Job would consider all of vs 4-7 to be literal, not metaphorical.
Well, he might consider the singing a metaphor, but I wouldn't be dogmatic about that.
__________________ "Either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy - and then admit that we just don't wanna do it." Steve Colbert |  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |