Your rent is due. Your heart is right before the Lord. You are not a sluggard. You confidently pray "Lord, Your word says you meet my needs. The rent needs to be paid. I thank You that I receive." Yet, rent day comes and you don't have the rent money, ten days later you still don't have the rent.
Your child is sick. You believe God is a healer. You watch Your child suffering. You go to your prayer closet and tell God "Lord, Your word says You bore this sickness. Your word says You are the Great Physician and the healer. Lord, please manifest healing in my child." Your child gets worse.
Your job is on the line. You need your job to pay the bills. You hear rumors of lay-offs. You pray "Lord, Your word says not to worry. Your word says to cast my care on You. You know our needs, oh Lord. I need this job to pay the rent. Thank You Lord for divine favor." You go to work and get a pink slip.
Could someone PLEASE address these examples using the belief that God NEVER says "no"??
The first thing I would have to ask you is if these are real life situations, or are they hypotheticals?
If they are not hypotheticals, I would then have to ask you if you think Jesus lied when He said: "All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive and you will have them."
The three examples that you provide are all legitimate requests. They are not outlandish requests or requests originating from the flesh or lust. Employment, a home, and health for your children are certainly within the will of God for all His people.
I would then ask if you believe the following senario as you have suggested it. I have inserted the response you have suggested in blue:
"Your child is sick. You believe God is a healer. You watch Your child suffering. You go to your prayer closet and tell God 'Lord, Your word says You bore this sickness. Your word says You are the Great Physician and the healer. Lord, please manifest healing in my child.' GOD SAYS "NO", and in fact Your child gets worse"
Is this senario that you are suggesting? I could do the same to the other two situations but the effect would be the same. What is wrong with the above story? Is this the image and behavior of God that you are suggesting?
I am fully aware that the situations you suggest are played out every day in every town and church. It happens exactly like you present with two very important differences:
1. Of course God does not say no. He is not in the lying business or the "no" business.
2. As you suggested in a previous post, there are many variables. The will, purpose, and provision of God are not among them. These are what we computer programmers would call a constants. They are static and never change:
James 1:16-17 KJV
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
The goodness and perfectness of His gifts are not a changing thing; is is not "variable".
So in the "equation": "That's why I tell you to have faith that you have already received whatever you pray for, and it will be yours.(Mark 11:24 GW)" the only thing that is offered as a variable is our belief. God is a constant. The missing faith is the only thing that is variable and preventing you from receiving.
Finally, let me return to my first question. Are these hypthetical or a real situations?
Do you know for a fact that someone's child was sick, and that the parent prayed believing, and child in fact got worse? Or is this just something you made up as a possilbe senario?
If it was merely a made up situation and we are to assume all of its elements are true...if in fact the parent asked and did believe... there is something terribly wrong because God lied and we are all doomed. Jesus lied when He said that we will recieve when we pray and believe. I of course do not believe this. Jesus and God did not lie. The made up situation could in fact never occur. There is something wrong, and it is not God. It is as I present above. For whatever reason, the parent in the hypothetical situation is not believing. That is the only possible answer.
If it was a real situation, then my response is as above. You are forcing me draw and state a conclusion that I normally do not present because people usually take it the wrong way and most non-WOF folks do not want to hear what I am about to say. They want to see it as an attack rather than a simple evalution of the facts. The devil suggests to them that this is mean spirited, when it in fact is merely a humble diagnosis:
The child was not healed because for some reason that we do not know(you did not say), the parent was not able to believe. I realize in your question you suggest that they were believing. But that could not be. If they were they would have received. Jesus said so. I do not say that from a position of condemnation or criticism. I say it with sadness because I have seen it happen all to often. As I said in the OP, people cannot/do not believe for many reasons, and the purpose of this thread is to eliminate one of them by showing its error: God does not say no.
If pressed further, I can only restate what I have presented in the opening graph. Jesus did not lie. He said if we ask believing, then we always receive. Always. I have to believe one way or the other. Either Jesus told the truth and we always recieve what we ask and believe for... or Jesus lied and God tells us no. I choose to believe Jesus.
The ultimate question and answer that needs to be addressed is this:
What does it mean to believe, and how do we come to believe. Once we discount the possiblity that God says no, then we can attack the true cause of a failed prayer life.... unbelief.
__________________
Last edited by songbird88; 21st October 2004 at 08:50 PM.
The first thing I would have to ask you is if these are real life situations, or are they hypotheticals?
If they are not hypotheticals, I would then have to ask you if you think Jesus lied when He said: "All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive and you will have them."
The three examples that you provide are all legitimate requests. They are not outlandish requests or requests originating from the flesh or lust. Employment, a home, and health for your children are certainly within the will of God for all His people.
I would then ask if you believe the following senario as you have suggested it. I have inserted the response you have suggested in blue:
"Your child is sick. You believe God is a healer. You watch Your child suffering. You go to your prayer closet and tell God 'Lord, Your word says You bore this sickness. Your word says You are the Great Physician and the healer. Lord, please manifest healing in my child.' GOD SAYS "NO", and in fact Your child gets worse"
Is this senario that you are suggesting? I could do the same to the other two situations but the effect would be the same. What is wrong with the above story? Is this the image and behavior of God that you are suggesting?
I am fully aware that the situations you suggest are played out every day in every town and church. It happens exactly like you present with two very important differences:
1. Of course God does not say no. He is not in the lying business or the "no" business.
2. As you suggested in a previous post, there are many variables. The will, purpose, and provision of God are not among them. These are what we computer programmers would call a constants. They are static and never change:
James 1:16-17 KJV
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
The goodness and perfectness of His gifts are not a changing thing; is is not "variable".
So in the "equation": "That's why I tell you to have faith that you have already received whatever you pray for, and it will be yours.(Mark 11:24 GW)" the only thing that is offered as a variable is our belief. God is a constant. The missing faith is the only thing that is variable and preventing you from receiving.
Finally, let me return to my first question. Are these hypthetical or a real situations?
Do you know for a fact that someone's child was sick, and that the parent prayed believing, and child in fact got worse? Or is this just something you made up as a possilbe senario?
If it was merely a made up situation and we are to assume all of its elements are true...if in fact the parent asked and did believe... there is something terribly wrong because God lied and we are all doomed. Jesus lied when He said that we will recieve when we pray and believe. I of course do not believe this. Jesus and God did not lie. The made up situation could in fact never occur. There is something wrong, and it is not God. It is as I present above. For whatever reason, the parent in the hypothetical situation is not believing. That is the only possible answer.
If it was a real situation, then my response is as above. You are forcing me draw and state a conclusion that I normally do not present because people usually take it the wrong way and most non-WOF folks do not want to hear what I am about to say. They want to see it as an attack rather than a simple evalution of the facts. The devil suggests to them that this is mean spirited, when it in fact is merely a humble diagnosis:
The child was not healed because for some reason that we do not know(you did not say), the parent was not able to believe. I realize in your question you suggest that they were believing. But that could not be. If they were they would have received. Jesus said so. I do not say that from a position of condemnation or criticism. I say it with sadness because I have seen it happen all to often. As I said in the OP, people cannot/do not believe for many reasons, and the purpose of this thread is to eliminate one of them by showing its error: God does not say no.
If pressed further, I can only restate what I have presented in the opening graph. Jesus did not lie. He said if we ask believing, then we always receive. Always. I have to believe one way or the other. Either Jesus told the truth and we always recieve what we ask and believe for... or Jesus lied and God tells us no. I choose to believe Jesus.
The ultimate question and answer that needs to be addressed is this:
What does it mean to believe, and how do we come to believe. Once we discount the possiblity that God says no, then we can attack the true cause of a failed prayer life.... unbelief.
I give up trying to reason with you! Since you will not answer my questions!!!
I am a WOF-er...who has experienced wonderful answered prayer and yet who knows first hand of not receiving answers..no matter the "standing on the word" I have experienced it working, and experienced no matter how much you "do it right" it doesn't work....
I also counsel many people who believed God, in the face of all hopelessness, and still received "NO" answers. They all have the same question: WHAT "reason" caused them not to get the answer to their prayer (the rent paid, the child healed, the job saved).... they truly believed they were praying in faith.. they truly believed God is able, they truly believed but were still let down....
yet...no one here will HONESTLY address this.... all that comes forth is condemnation for so-called "lack of faith".....
I deal with these REAL situations every day in our ministry.. YES they are real!! REAL people who have believed and still not received..they need more than people continually saying "God NEVER says no".....when they get 'no's' to all their prayers.
I give up trying to reason with you! Since you will not answer my questions!!!
1. You have not tried to reason at all. 2. You did not ask questions, you simply presented a three similar situations which I spend several hours responding to, and then you either did not read or did not try to understand.
I am a WOF-er...who has experienced wonderful answered prayer and yet who knows first hand of not receiving answers..no matter the "standing on the word" I have experienced it working, and experienced no matter how much you "do it right" it doesn't work....
I also counsel many people who believed God, in the face of all hopelessness, and still received "NO" answers. They all have the same question: WHAT "reason" caused them not to get the answer to their prayer (the rent paid, the child healed, the job saved).... they truly believed they were praying in faith.. they truly believed God is able, they truly believed but were still let down....
The answer was given and it was very simple. My 8 year old grandchild could see it. I will put it in bold red letters so you will see it:
You do not know what it means to believe. You do not know how to believe. This is not condemnation, this is merely observation, diagnosis, and suggested plan to remedy.
If you were truly looking for answers you would have seen this in my post and returned with further questions about the what and how of believing. Instead I get this:
yet...no one here will HONESTLY address this.... all that comes forth is condemnation for so-called "lack of faith".....
Do you really think I came here and spent hours responding to your post with the sole motivation of 'condemning" you? Surely you are not seeing that in these responses. Nobody condemned anyone. You imagined that and missed the whole point. If you went to the doctor with the sniffles and he suggested you had a cold, would you draw back and demand that he stop condemning you??? You have a logic pattern set up in your mind that causes you to completely miss what is being said and imagine condemnation where there is none... or: you simply did not read the response. I said some very specific things about the situations you suggested, and you just did not see it.
If I were you, I would be very concerned about this... you are seeing condemnation where there truly is none, and you are missing specific answers to the questions you are asking and for whatever reason you are not seeing them or not understanding them.
I deal with these REAL situations every day in our ministry.. YES they are real!! REAL people who have believed and still not received..they need more than people continually saying "God NEVER says no".....when they get 'no's' to all their prayers.
Can you not see that you are pointing your finger in the face of Jesus and saying:
"You lied Jesus... I believed and I did not get what I asked for. You said I would but I did not. You are a liar and so the Father is a liar."
Are you not afraid of this?
I know you sincerely think that you believe, as well as the people you have spoken to. But sincerity is not always reality. I realize the frustration of not knowing the why of these things and may be speaking from that frustration. I have had sick children, I have slept in the woods, been penniless, and lost jobs. But I never told God He was a liar because of it. I diligently sought Him, I discovered the answers, and I can tell you it works 100% all the time without exception. It did not at first because I had to learn... but now that I see some of these things clearer, I can see what is happening and why. You have to start with the absolute assumption that is presented in Heb 11. You really have no choice:
Hebrews 11:6 GW
6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
The answer is staring you right in the face. Just look and listen. As long as you continually say "it does not work", and "God says no", and depending on your own integrity while defaming His, it will not work... it will never work.
__________________
Last edited by songbird88; 22nd October 2004 at 05:58 AM.
I deal with these REAL situations every day in our ministry.. YES they are real!! REAL people who have believed and still not received..they need more than people continually saying "God NEVER says no".....when they get 'no's' to all their prayers.
Yes, there are times when we pray, stand, praise, believe and still our problems are still there, it may seems as if God says No, but the answers always come.
Our times is not His times. We may think that we need this now etc, but God knows better, in His times we shall have what He have promised, if we faint not.
God is never late, He is always on time. And His time is the most perfect one.
And if you know that God Never says No, and that He does not make any exception or have preferences concerning anybody, you will be able to stand strong in faith not wavering because God never says No. You will be able to look at your situation and still proclaim boldly that God My healer or God My Provider will never abandoned me, surely my cries of help shall be answered. For I know in whom I have trust. A God who never says No.
He won't say No, when I am asking for salvation.
He won't say No, when I am asking for healing.
He won't say No, when I am asking for my needs to be met.
For He Knows all of my needs before I ever asked for them.
He is the good Shepherd.
For He care deeply for me.
And when you know that God Never ever will says No, you will be able not to keep your focus on your own unanswered prayer, on your own suffering, but you will be able to seek the kingdom of God first, you will have an assurance that God have taken care of your situation. And you will rest in peace as deep in your heart you know you have a God who says Yes.
Italia, I know what you are driving at. Ok, for those situations, they are the things that will test your faith. Jesus said that we will have trials and tribulations. BUT, He has granted us the victory already. Anyway, always know that situations are always subject to change. YOU can change your situation by what you believe. Ok, you ask God for favour and some divine intervention coz u are gonna loose your job, but you get a pink slip. Right now, it will take faith for you to believe that no matter what, God's hand is on the matter, and whatever comes out will be good. Once you dedicate it to God, He is has planned out everything. Jeremiah 29:11 says He has plans NOT to harm you but to prosper you. Faith is the confident EXPECTATION of good regardless of circumstances. the devil can throw anything at you, but ultimately, God is above the circumstances. If you loose the job, nvm, know and BELIEVE that God has a better one in store for you. Better pay, better hours. Its when you have this confident expectation of good, when the devil looses his hold and whatever he throws at you will be of no effect. like a firm strong tree planted deeply in the soil, however great the storm is, the tree wun fall. And hope is the thing that gives us this confident expectation of good. That's why we can glory in tribulations! We look at the end = no matter what, we are victorious.
Romans 5: 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[1] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
The other situation, your child is sick, u pray, but condition worsens. You know sth? when the devil knows his loosing, he'll throw his all, one last attempt at the child. Make him sicker or sth.........but as long as you persevere, and have hope in the Lord, clinging on to the knowledge and conviction that Jesus HAS delivered the child from sickness according to scriptures, the break through will come. You just have to press on and not be swayed by circumstances. Look in the supernatural. Look at how big God is. Do you believe God is bigger than you situation, or is your situation bigger than God? Press on, cling on to His promises! And God CANNOT fail you. Just keep on believing no matter how long it takes..........don't let the devil win. Remember, we fight against what is not flesh and blood. Its the battle of the mind. Don't be ruled by what you see. Faith is the substances of things UNSEEN.
Last situation, the rent problem. Again, the devil will do anything to cause you to stop believing as once you stop believing, God cannot act. So as I said, refuse to go by what you see. Refuse to go by the natural. Go by God's Word. Jesus said He'll meet all our needs according to His riches in glory, so He will coz HE CANNOT LIE. Just cling on, and don't doubt. Even if the situation is hopeless, DON"T GIVE UP!!!!! And somehow, your miracle will come. God IS always faithful.
"The Lord is my shepard, I shall not want."
We could not say psalm 23 if we served a God that says no.
We would have to say:
"The Lord is my shepard, and I seem to want a lot!"
I have never understood how someone could believe they have received when they pray if they still think God says no!
YOU MUST BELIEVE YOU HAVE RECEIVED WHEN YOU PRAY!
Mark 11:24 GW
24 That's why I tell you to have faith that you have already received whatever you pray for, and it will be yours.
You cannot do this if you think God says no.
That is double-mindedness!
How can anyone read this verse and still accuse God of saying no??? Psalms 84:11 KJV
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory:no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
If you are a believer washed in the blood, then you qualify for this! You have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. You are not going to get any better than that!
And this:
Psalms 34:9-10 KJV 9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
10 The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
You cannot believe in a no-saying-God and believe that verse.
And this glorious verse! Psalms 34:6 KJV
6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
ALL means ALL. That poor man was not poor for long! I do not see a "no" here!
Look at the words that fell from the mouth of our Lord: Matthew 6:31-34 KJV
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. You cannot believe in a God that says no and believe these verses. If you believe in a God that says no, then you better be worried! You better be worried all the time! You may starve tomorrow. You may be sick forever. And this is oven what happens to people who think God says no! The faith destroying mindset pushes them into the worry every day mentatity because they have no confidence that He will do as He said He will. START BELIEVING IN THE GOD WHO IS MORE THAN ENOUGH!
I am baffled at the mindset that thinks that God says no. James 1:6-7 KJV
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
GO DOES NOT SAY NO TO FAITH!!!!!
Praise His Name!
Originally Posted by kooolfriend
Yes, there are times when we pray, stand, praise, believe and still our problems are still there, it may seems as if God says No, but the answers always come.
Our times is not His times. We may think that we need this now etc, but God knows better, in His times we shall have what He have promised, if we faint not.
God is never late, He is always on time. And His time is the most perfect one.
And if you know that God Never says No, and that He does not make any exception or have preferences concerning anybody, you will be able to stand strong in faith not wavering because God never says No. You will be able to look at your situation and still proclaim boldly that God My healer or God My Provider will never abandoned me, surely my cries of help shall be answered. For I know in whom I have trust. A God who never says No.
He won't say No, when I am asking for salvation.
He won't say No, when I am asking for healing.
He won't say No, when I am asking for my needs to be met.
For He Knows all of my needs before I ever asked for them.
He is the good Shepherd.
For He care deeply for me.
And when you know that God Never ever will says No, you will be able not to keep your focus on your own unanswered prayer, on your own suffering, but you will be able to seek the kingdom of God first, you will have an assurance that God have taken care of your situation. And you will rest in peace as deep in your heart you know you have a God who says Yes.
__________________
Last edited by songbird88; 24th October 2004 at 09:55 AM.
Great posts...thanks for sharing..what about standing in faith touching and concerning a person or situation...a family situation...obviously I can believe for needs met and finances and stand on that scripture...healing as well, but what a bout people and situtions...still stand in faith?
Do you suggest that Paul didn't believe in the right way - because his prayer was not answered?
Do we know what is best for us or does the Lord know?
2Co 12:8-9 For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me. And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
WOF-theology puts too much pressure on people: they think that their belief is not strong enough if they don't get what they pray for....
We are certainly not the ones who are in a position to tell God what to do - rather we should thankfully accept whatever he gives us.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
__________________
Eph 2:8.9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Do you suggest that Paul didn't believe in the right way - because his prayer was not answered?
I am not aware of a prayer that Paul prayed that was answered with a no.
Do we know what is best for us or does the Lord know?
It does not say "ask what is the best for you and you will receive whatever you say". It says ask and believe and you will recieve. How can you believe for anything if you do not consider everything (that is good) to be good for you? You cannot believe that you received anything unless you believe you receive everything. That is simply logic.
2Co 12:8-9 For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me. And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
I have read this scripture a thousand times... like many times more. I have read it in multiple translations with various interpretations, and even in foreign languages. I have yet to see the word "no".
Ask me if I see the word no in that verse.
You: "Songbird do you see the word no in that verse?"
Songbird: "My grace is sufficent for you..."
Since you seem to see the word "no" whenever that sentence is written, then you know the answer to your question...
WOF-theology puts too much pressure on people: they think that their belief is not strong enough if they don't get what they pray for....
That is a straw man. If you would read what we say and not what the heresy hunters say, then you would see that we are not pressuring anyone. We are like doctors diagnosising a condition and prescribing the cure.
The diagnosis is "absense of belief" prescription is "revelation knowledge".
Do you feel condemned or pressured when a doctor says you need more protien in your diet or vitamins? The pressure you are feeling is due to a missdefinition of the word belief. Nobody is saying you are doing anything wrong. A fact is being stated.
If faith is present, then you receive.
If (for whatever reason) faith is not present, then you do not receive.
I have found that some people who use this argument have had the devil whisper a lie into their ears. He suggests to them that it is being implied that they are somehow inferior. He attempts to appeal to the pride of life that is present in us all. He distracts us into becoming defensive and even tricks us into defending doubt and unbelief. He even decieves us into denying the word of God and the gospel.
We are certainly not the ones who are in a position to tell God what to do - rather we should thankfully accept whatever he gives us.
Trouble is, this is exactly contray to what Jesus says. Who are we going to believe. Are we going to go the route of mere theism and worship and unknow God? Or are we going to take the words of Jesus and run with them? The implication of the statement "take whatever He gives us" is that everything we get comes from Him. This is classical "mere theism" that honors the God of "general attributes" rather than the God revealed to us by Jesus. Do what did Jesus say? He said to follow Him and keep He words. Let's look at His words instead of the words of cold hard theology:
Joh 15:7
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Mat 21:22 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Joh 15:16 16 ... that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 16:23-24 23... Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. 24 ...ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
1Jo 3:22 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, ...
1Jo 5:15 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Mat 18:19 19 ... That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mar 11:22-24 22 And answering, Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. 23 For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says. 24 Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive, and it will be to you
That does not sound like a "take whatever comes as being from God and be thankful" does it?
What about this one?
Joh 14:13
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
The "take whatever comes" theory would seem to fly in the face of this. And what about what James said:
James 1:16-17 KJV
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
If you are experiencing imperfect gifts that are not good.... then I would question where they were coming from. He does not have any evil gifts or imperfect gifts.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work
together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
This is an oft quoted verse that is taken out of context to justify almost everything theological theory that comes down the road. In no way does this imply that God wants us to suffer sickness, poverty, and lack. Those things that happen work together for our GOOD, not our hurt or evil or sickness. God does not have to use the devil's methods in order to accomplish His will. He uses perfect gifts, a perfect savior, a perfect gospel supplied by perfect promises.
We just need to get hold of he Jesus image of God and forsake this mere theism.
you are putting too much pressure on people! 
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