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Unread 25th March 2004, 08:40 PM
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Smile Surah 4:89-90.

This passage has received quite a bit of airtime recently.

89.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

90.
Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Right-wing hatemonger Amber Pawlik quoted it in a dizzyingly irrational rant against "liberals" (whoever they are) which may be read at your leisure (if you enjoy self-abuse) by clicking here.

The passage has been seized upon by those of her ilk and employed in equally sickening attacks on Islam, of the sort that you will find in this thread.

By way of setting the record straight, I'd like to present the commentary on that passage in the 1994 edition of the Koran by Amana Publications:

When the desertion of the hypocrites at Uhud nearly caused a disaster to the Muslim cause there was great feeling among the Muslims of Madinah against them. One party wanted to put them to the sword; another to leave them alone. The actual policy pursued avoided both extremes, and was determined by these verses.

It was clear that they were a danger to the Muslim community if they were admitted into its counsels, and in any case they were a source of demoralisation. But while every caution was used, no extreme measures were taken against them. On the contrary, they were given a chance of making good.

If they made a sacrifice for the cause ("flee from what is forbidden", see next verse) their conduct purged their previous cowardice, and their sincerity entitled them to be taken back. But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion, which is enforced by all nations actually at war.

Even so, a human exception was made in the two cases specified in 4:90.
As Christians, we get upset when atheists quote the Bible out of context during their attacks on our faith.

It is therefore indefensible for a Christian to practice the same deceit.
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Last edited by Ikaria; 28th March 2004 at 05:33 PM.
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Unread 25th March 2004, 08:53 PM
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Good post Ikaria! How do we expect to reach anyone if we can't even get the facts of their religion right? If we don't have respect for what they hold sacred why should they listen to what we say?
tulc(trying to rep Ikaria and it worked!)
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Unread 26th March 2004, 01:14 AM
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I guess the other thread got deleted or something. Oh well.

Thank you for actually paying attention to the 1400 year old tradition of Islamic scholarship.

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Unread 26th March 2004, 01:38 AM
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Well done Ikaria. I'm really just reiterating what has already been said on this thread.

Peace.

JD
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Unread 26th March 2004, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ikaria


............But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion, which is enforced by all nations actually at war...............


It appears to me that the very commentary you cite demonstrates CLEARLY how dangerous muslims are- by the words of the commentary they see themselves as a Nation and not as a Faith Community. Therefore it would seem quite reasonable for example for the USA to treat all muslims within our Borders as enemy aliens given that we are currently at War with the islamicists. In addition an affiliation with islam should make a person ineligible for USA Citizenship given their inability to renounce Loyalty to another 'Nation'.
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Unread 26th March 2004, 10:11 AM
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well ive never said anything about the Koran because i've never had 2 seconds to read it. all my point are drawn from current events and actions.
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Unread 26th March 2004, 10:52 AM
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Agree

Originally Posted by tulc
Good post Ikaria! How do we expect to reach anyone if we can't even get the facts of their religion right? If we don't have respect for what they hold sacred why should they listen to what we say?
tulc(trying to rep Ikaria and it worked!)
Thanks man! Just doing my job...
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Unread 26th March 2004, 10:54 AM
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Love

Originally Posted by rahma
I guess the other thread got deleted or something. Oh well.
I don't think it was deleted, but it was certainly locked - mainly because I kept beating people up.

Thank you for actually paying attention to the 1400 year old tradition of Islamic scholarship.

You're welcome. I hate to see people misrepresenting religion, whether it's mine or anyone else's.

And it's especially offensive when a Christian is at fault.
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Unread 26th March 2004, 10:56 AM
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Agree

Originally Posted by Jonathan David
Well done Ikaria. I'm really just reiterating what has already been said on this thread.

Peace.

JD
Cheers.

Let's fight the good fight, spread the love and increase the peace!
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Unread 26th March 2004, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mikefromwichita
Therefore it would seem quite reasonable for example for the USA to treat all muslims within our Borders as enemy aliens given that we are currently at War with the islamicists.
Anyone remember WW2? Japanese Internment camps? It's comments like these that remind me how important it is that I keep studying history.

We're at war with Islamics, yes, but not at war with Islam. Even Bush made that clear.

Furthermore, Islamics, as I understand it, view their "nation" in the same way as many Christians view their fellowship with other Christians. Just because Islamics happened to use a different word doesn't change the underlying meaning.
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