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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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  #31  
Old 20th October 2004, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Justme
HI forum,

I've drawn a blank on what places to look for five 'kings', Israel itself doesn't work, the United Nations as a world govenment doesn't work. As I said I did find that there have been five popes since Israel became a country in 1948. Well, there have been 5 popes, but what possible significance or what possible connection does that all make.

What I am looking for is any present day arrangemnet of five lings who have been, etc to fulfill Rev 17:10.

As far as actual 'kings' I don't see anything around that could have any connection. The king of England isn't going to cause much trouble and in fact she's a queen anyway.There are kings from Jordon and I'm having trouble figuring out anything there.

Ideas??

Justme
The answer is in the book of Revelation itself! Revelation 13 says that the beast has seven heads and ten horns with ten crowns on each horn.
It also says that each of the seven heads had a name of blasphemy!
These kings exhault themselves higher than the Lord GOD.
Remember ol' Nebuchadnezzar? After he exhaulted himself and wondering at Babylon saying, 'look what I have done!,' the LORD made him roam around on all fours like a beast! Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold on the statue, and that statue is still standing, right?
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  #32  
Old 20th October 2004, 11:15 PM
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Here's some food for thought.

Consider Daniel 11. In Daniel 11, 7 kings of the North were described.
The sixth was Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antigonus first ruled Asia
Then Seleucus, with the help of Ptolemy, took over Asia
Then Antiochus Theos, as some called him 'the god'
Then Antiochus the Great
Then Seleucus Soter, also called Philopater
*Then Antiochus Epiphanes

Notice that John said that five had fallen, one is, and one will come but shall remain for a little while. He also said that the beast was, is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.

Now, Antiochus was the last before the seventh king was mentioned, but Judas of Maccabees led his revolt which overthrew Antiochus Epiphanes, thus breaking the story and leaving it for later.

The man of sin is the last king. So possibly, maybe John was referring to Antiochus Epiphanes simply because he was the last one mentioned. Ofcourse John would have most likely said that six had fallen instead of five, only leaving the possibility that the king during his time was either of the same blood line of Antiochus or of the same spirit.
Notice that Antiochus Epiphanes caused the sacrifice and offering to cease and placed in the temple the abomination that causes desolation.
The Roman during 70 A.D. caused the sacrifice and offering to ceases by destroying the temple after sacrificing to their gods on the altar. Consider that Vespasian was king at that time though, and not Titus.

I dunno, just food for thought....what do you think?
  #33  
Old 20th October 2004, 11:32 PM
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Let me try to clear this up for you.
The seven heads are seven hills,and they are also seven kings.The word kings can also be translated kingdoms.It makes more sense in this case to say the seven heads are seven kingdoms,because history and scripture reveal that there have been seven gentile world kingdoms.
Five have fallen are the five gentile world kingdoms (Assyrian,Medo-persian,greek,egyption and babylonian) that existed before johns lifetime.One is refers to the sixth kingdom (roman) that existed during johns lifetime, and the others has not yet come refers to a seventh future kingdom (the revived roman empire) which will exist after johns lifetime. This seventh kingdom will remain (he must remain for a little while) for the duration of the seven year tribulation period.
  #34  
Old 20th October 2004, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by brinley45cal
Let me try to clear this up for you.
The seven heads are seven hills,and they are also seven kings.The word kings can also be translated kingdoms.It makes more sense in this case to say the seven heads are seven kingdoms,because history and scripture reveal that there have been seven gentile world kingdoms.
Five have fallen are the five gentile world kingdoms (Assyrian,Medo-persian,greek,egyption and babylonian) that existed before johns lifetime.One is refers to the sixth kingdom (roman) that existed during johns lifetime, and the others has not yet come refers to a seventh future kingdom (the revived roman empire) which will exist after johns lifetime. This seventh kingdom will remain (he must remain for a little while) for the duration of the seven year tribulation period.
While I understand where you are coming from, take in consideration that the beast didn't start at Assyria because the other four beasts didn't exist either, because they hadn't overrun Israel yet. The kings are not kingdoms because that would mean that only 3 had fallen at the time: Babylon, Medo/Persia, and Greece. It was with Babylon that God declared desolations on the Jews and Jerusalem. Assyria has nothing to do with it. Niether does Egypt because even in Daniel 11, when the man of sin is on the rampage, he fights the king of the South, which is in Egypt, meaning Egypt has no empire. Thought the Egyptians under Ptolemy did capture the Jews and treat them harshly, that was short lived. If considering this, that would make only four kingdoms having fallen instead of five, because Rome hadn't fallen yet.
Assyria is out of the question because they never took over Jerusalem, instead they were swallowed by the Babylonian Empire. Thanks and the Lord bless you.
  #35  
Old 21st October 2004, 02:33 AM
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If we look at Revelation with the eyes of God (the macro picture) rather than the eyes of man (rather limited scope) we might begin to get a better picture.
Now on the basis that Revelation is the final chapter of God's dealing with mankind on earth, and of the dealing with the seven covenants He has made with him, then after five covenants are dealt with, five kings (Satans opposition to those ) would have fallen there would be one being dealt with and there would be one yet to be dealt with.

Is it not rather simple?
  #36  
Old 21st October 2004, 08:59 AM
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Hi A4C,

Tell us more about these five covenants and also how there will be any future 'covenants,' like after the covenant that begins at the cross. Or do you consider that as something different?

Justme
  #37  
Old 21st October 2004, 09:13 AM
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Hi Barraco,

The Roman during 70 A.D. caused the sacrifice and offering to ceases by destroying the temple after sacrificing to their gods on the altar. Consider that Vespasian was king at that time though, and not Titus.
Vesparian was the roman emporor I thought, but Titus finally came to Jerusalem to wage the war. Titus did become ruler later.

If you consider the Roman rulers who were there during the lifetime of Christ you find there are five up to when John has the vision. Augustua, up to 14 AD , I forget a couple , Nero to 68, then Vesparian and Titus was there and returned later as ruler.

In 69 AD there was some kind of power struggle in the Roman empire and 4 guys came and went somehow. Maybe someone here knows how that worked.

Nero's name apparently computes to 666, but so does just about all others.

As far as the sacrifice ceasing, that fits and the abomination appears 1260 days within that. That would also fit with Nero's army.

Concerning present time, someone PM'ed me a link to where a group felt all these world empires of the past made up the first five and the new world govenment would eventually be in power. I didn;t save the link it, was just a statement and had no evidence with it to back anything up.

I haven't seen anything that points to a present day combibnation yet.

Justme
  #38  
Old 21st October 2004, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Justme
Hi Barraco,

Vesparian was the roman emporor I thought, but Titus finally came to Jerusalem to wage the war. Titus did become ruler later.

If you consider the Roman rulers who were there during the lifetime of Christ you find there are five up to when John has the vision. Augustua, up to 14 AD , I forget a couple , Nero to 68, then Vesparian and Titus was there and returned later as ruler.

In 69 AD there was some kind of power struggle in the Roman empire and 4 guys came and went somehow. Maybe someone here knows how that worked.

Nero's name apparently computes to 666, but so does just about all others.

As far as the sacrifice ceasing, that fits and the abomination appears 1260 days within that. That would also fit with Nero's army.

Concerning present time, someone PM'ed me a link to where a group felt all these world empires of the past made up the first five and the new world govenment would eventually be in power. I didn;t save the link it, was just a statement and had no evidence with it to back anything up.

I haven't seen anything that points to a present day combibnation yet.

Justme
I can tell you this much, Nero isn't the beast. Perhaps he is of the beast, but is not the man of sin/8th king because for one, Nero never caused the abomination that causes desolation, nor caused the sacrifice and offering to cease. Titus did surround and destroy Jerusalem, and did cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, but he was not king at the time, he was a prince; but more like a general. Also, it wasn't four kings that fell, it was three: Galbo, Otho, and Vitellius, they call it the 'year of four kings' because Vespasian became king after Vietellius. Before he got to Rome, though, Domitian was put as his vicar(someone who ruled in his sted) until he came to Rome. It was then that the duty was handed over to Titus to take care of the rebellion in Jerusalem. So thus the kings would have gone like this:
1)Augustus
2)Tiberius
3)Caius; also called Caligula
4)Claudius
5)Nero
6)Galba
7)Otho
8)Vitellius
9)Domitian; vicar until Vespasian came to Rome to claim the throne
10)Vespasian
11)Titus
12)Domitian

I assure you that the seven kings go further than the kings of Rome during Jesus's time. These kings have names of blasphemy, five of whom had fallen before the writing of Revelation, and one who was alive at the time, and one who was to come and remain for a little while. The mystery of all this is that the beast himself shared his characteristics with seven previous kings:
1)they were blasphemers who exalted themselves above the Lord despite their knowledge of him
2)they were rulers of Gentile world kingdoms
3)they persecuted the saints
4)they attempted to do away with the law
5)they took away or attempted to take away sacrifice and oblation.

Such kings fit this description:
1)Nebuchadnezzar
2)Antiochus Epiphanes
3)Caius Caligula
4)Nero
5)Domitian

These men exalted themselves over the Most High, persecuted the saints, attempted to change the law, attempted to desolate the temple by setting up abominations, made show of slaughtering the saints, scattered the saints, exiled the saints, and even went as far as to call themselves a god and to demand others to do so. There may be more to the list, but I'm just naming some of the few.
  #39  
Old 21st October 2004, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Justme
Hi A4C,

Tell us more about these five covenants and also how there will be any future 'covenants,' like after the covenant that begins at the cross. Or do you consider that as something different?

Justme
The way I see it is that the seven have been established -ours being the last.
Jesus said often that the last will be first meaning that in the last days our covenant will be the first dealt with. Each will then be dealt with in reverse order to how they were established, ie the Law follows when that covenant is "confirmed" (Dan 9:27 )
  #40  
Old 21st October 2004, 08:15 PM
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Hi Barraco,

Does the five that have fallen really have to have fallen before revelation was written? Can John not be speaking from a future point in time...or from a time in the past for that matter?

Speaking of the taking away of the daily sacrifice however, there is no need to consider anything whatsoever about sacrifices today. Sacrifice is over and forever done with since the cross.

So show me more on this beast being connected with the taking away of sacrifices.

Justme
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