So you look at the Greek word...and then go to the English dictionary for more wisdom of what is meant in the scripture?
FreeinChrist. If you do not understand the purpose of a paraphrased translation or what benefit it provides, then I don't know what to say to you. Obvously, how we currently use the English language right now impacts how we understand the words the translators chose. How those same words are understood now are understood differently than they were 50 years ago. Go back 100 years and you get into greater differences. Just a generation or 2 ago, gay used to mean something very different than it does now . .
An English dictionary becomes very important to understand the words as they were used by the translators . . The more modern translations try to use words that convey the sense the original Greek conveys . . at some point, "vain" will not longer be an appropriate word to use in a modern translation, and those reading an older translation will have to go back to an older dictionary to properly understand it. . . but most people are going to read a word and give it the most common definition they know and not bother to look it up.
Some of us Christians end up speaking 2 Enlgish languages . .a biblical english, and an everyday English . .. oh well . . .
And note the this: Sorry, but the definition itself shows that 'vain' is just part fo the description of ignoramus...they aren't interchangeable.
You missed the whole point of that little exercise it seems . .
How Christlike...."you ignoramus!" :rolleyes:
Whatever you would like to say! May God's blessings be upon you.
No - I really have to question who was leading the translator of that verse. :rolleyes:
You are free to question anything you like . . it is not going to bother me.
FYI - large font does nothing to make you view 'more right'.
And so the misunderstanding continues . . what in the world gave you the idea that I thought the bigger font meant "more right' . . bigger font is for emphasis . . there was a lot in that section and I wanted to make one thing stand out . . . oh well . .
So I still believe that ignoramus is a less Spirit-led word - a bad word - to translate kenos in.
Not all translations are good tranlsations.
[/size]
Again, What does a translation have to do with being 'inspired" or "spirit led" . . it is a translation, done by scholars who approach it with a particular goal in mind . .
NO translation is inspired . .the SCRIPTURES are inspired . but no translations . .
You can say it is "less correct" or "more correct" but you can't make a call about inspiriation for no translation claims to be inspired . .
Peace in Him!
Last edited by thereselittleflower; 23rd March 2004 at 09:11 PM.
AVBunyan, I just wanted to applaud the masterful job you did of narrowing down all the scriptures to fit one or two into your doctrine. Beautifully done!!! And very creative too, the way you devised your 'game'.
If I may, i'd like to borrow your premise, and use it for a little game myself. I'm sure you wouldn't mind...
OK, today's question is on "salvation". I'm thinking of a passage on "How is one truly saved" and i'd like everyone to try to guess which passage it is! fun!!!
Well, actually, I already know the passage that i'm talking about, so maybe everyone shouldn't waste their time trying to come up with one, since I already have it set in my mind! fun!!!
"for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved." Romans 10:9-10...Close! But not the one i'm looking for!
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16...Even closer! keep trying!
"and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord." Acts 2:21...VERY close!!! Almost there!!!
"who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved." Acts 11:14...THATS IT!!! We are saved by words spoken to us!
Now, wasn't this a fun, fun game?!
~peace and love~
kel32 a very fun game.
Oh, but you forgot the one about being saved in childbirh!! That is a must!
That Fact that it not there is of little consiqueence to the translation to carry the ture meaning of the verse is it's consturction.
With in the constuction it may not be nessiary "angel of the lord" whith in the pages of scripture in this phase the 'OF" is not there in the greek the construct demands it. Matt 1:20.
In: if the Idea was to convey Faith in Paul would have used : ἐν
en
en
Gal 3:26 For1063 ye are2075 all3956 the children5207 of God2316 by1223 faith4102 in1722 Christ5547 Jesus.2424
Col 1:4 Since we heard191 of your5216 faith4102 in1722 Christ5547 Jesus,2424 and2532 of the3588 love26whichye(3588)have to1519 all3956 the3588 saints.40
Peace to u,
BBAS
That's why I say you can't make a doctrine revolve around such a construction in the English langauge. I don't have a lot of time right now to do everything I would like to with this verse, but you may find this interesting . . I have to say, I agree with the concluding remarks
That Fact that it not there is of little consiqueence to the translation to carry the ture meaning of the verse is it's consturction.
With in the constuction it may not be nessiary "angel of the lord" whith in the pages of scripture in this phase the 'OF" is not there in the greek the construct demands it. Matt 1:20.
BBAS, it is not so much about construction here as it is context. Some contexts clearly require such an understanding . . such as you pointed out above. . but even then, it is merely indicating possession, belonging . . and the word "of" makes more grammatical sense in English than the word "in". . .
The angel of the Lord could also be restated as the Lord's Angel . .
In: if the Idea was to convey Faith in Paul would have used : ἐν
en
en
Gal 3:26 For1063 ye are2075 all3956 the children5207 of God2316 by1223 faith4102 in1722 Christ5547 Jesus.2424
I am glad you provided this verse from the same book AV is looking to to justify his doctrine . .
Paul uses the word "IN" here to say that we are made children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus . . not "of" as in faith originating in Jesus .. but is speaking of OUR faith in Him! Paul specifically uses the word 'en' to denote the instrumentality of our faith in our being members of Christ.
To then make Paul say we are saved by Christ's own faith, and not ours, is to deny what Paul had just said here earlier in the same letter . . How can you be part of the body of Christ if you are not saved? If your faith makes you a part of that body, then it is instumental in your salvation as well . .
Col 1:4 Since we heard191 of your5216 faith4102 in1722 Christ5547 Jesus,2424 and2532 of the3588 love26whichye(3588)have to1519 all3956 the3588 saints.40
Again, Paul is speaking of OUR faith . . not Christ's faith.
It simply does not make sense for Paul to contradict himself.
Again, using the same word as found in AV's example, we see it translated 'in Jesus' here:
Rom 3:26 To4314 declare,1732Isay, at1722 this3568 time2540 his846 righteousness:1343 that he846 might be1511 just,1342 and2532 the justifier1344 of him3588 which believeth1537, 4102inJesus.2424
But clearly, Paul is speaking about OUR belief and how God justifies us because of our belief IN Jesus . . something we do, that comes from us.
FreeinChrist. If you do not understand the purpose of a paraphrased translation or what benefit it provides, then I don't know what to say to you.
TLF - the NAB is not a paraphrased Bible. Please see a New Living Bible for an example of a paraphrased Bible.
I am interested in the Greek, TLF - not all the rationalizing I see in your posts. I beleive that I will not be wasting my money on a NAB if it translates kenos as ignoramus - that is just plain stupid. IMHO.
I truly regret responding to you. It has, unfortunately - drawn attention away from the purpose of the thread. You had expressed unhappiness with the purpose of the thread - perhaps, rather than trying to change it, you should start your own.
In respect to AVBunyan, I will only respond to the posts that address the purpose of the thread.
__________________
Miles walked/jogged in 2010 – 557.5
Miles biked in 2010 – 289.5
Miles jogged/run in 2011 - 550.2
Miles jogged/run in 2012 - 500.45
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Of course! You don't have to do any of the hard stuff! But then again, that must mean only women can be saved!
Peace in Him!
Hmmmmm....you're right! ...well, ok, we'll go with the childbirth thing for women and the listening to the word for the men...sounds fair to me!!! ~peace~
TLF - the NAB is not a paraphrased Bible. Please see a New Living Bible for an example of a paraphrased Bible.
FreeinChrist. There is not only 2 ends - there is a whole continuim of translations.
On one end, you have your ultra-literal word-for-word translations.
On the other end, you have your ultra-paraphrased thought-for-thought translations. And then you have a whole slew of translations that fall somewhere inbetween the two ends.
If the NAB is not a parapharsed bible, then neither is the NIV . . The NIV is right in the middle of the continuim.
The NAB is a little towards the word-for-word end, but not much off the center mark. The KJV is quite a bit more towards the word-for-word end, but not all the way there.
The Interlinear is the ultra-word-for-word translation. followed by, in order, the NASB, AMP, ESP, RSV, KJV, NKJV, HCSB, NRSV, NAB, NJB, NIV, TNV in the middle. Then as we progress towards the ultra thought-for-thought end, next is the NCV/ICV, NLT, NIrV, GNT, CEV, Living, Message at the other end of the continuim.
So you see, the NAB is part word-for-word, part thought-for-thought as is the NIV . .
The verse we have been discussing falls more into the thought-for-thought translation approach in the NAB . .
I am interested in the Greek, TLF - not all the rationalizing I see in your posts.
Well, you can call it rationalizing if you want, that is as good a way to dismiss something as any other way . .
I beleive that I will not be wasting my money on a NAB if it translates kenos as ignoramus - that is just plain stupid. IMHO.
You are welcome to your opinion just as everyone else is . .
I truly regret responding to you. It has, unfortunately - drawn attention away from the purpose of the thread. You had expressed unhappiness with the purpose of the thread - perhaps, rather than trying to change it, you should start your own.
Of course, no one forced you to respond to my post. You are the one who drew attention to a word I had not highlighted. You are the one having prolem with the translation.
Yes, discussing your issues with it has drawn our part in this thread off to a side issue . . but I only tried to address your concerns, which I do not regret. If you are finished then we can move on. I appreciated the opportunity to clarify how translations are approached and where different trnaslations fall within the continuim of approaches.
In respect to AVBunyan, I will only respond to the posts that address the purpose of the thread.
I think that is why you responded to my post in the first place . .
Hmmmmm....you're right! ...well, ok, we'll go with the childbirth thing for women and the listening to the word for the men...sounds fair to me!!! ~peace~
So all you have to do is listen? That's it!! Well, I guess Eve did eat the apple first . . .
:rolleyes: 
May God's blessings be upon you.
But then again, that must mean only women can be saved! 
...well, ok, we'll go with the childbirth thing for women and the listening to the word for the men...sounds fair to me!!! ~peace~ 
Linear Mode
