Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
I may be off base here.
And yes this is a fun thread. Exploring our salvation, delving into the Word of God, Praising God for his Grace, what could be more fun?
No, you are not off base here - Thanks TugOwar for your response and good attitude with this strange thread - you hit upon part of what I started this post for - to have fun and a joyful time with our wonderful salvation.
Your verse is a great verse and a right one but there is one specific verse and one onely that has the phrase I'm looking for that tells exactly how were are justified with another slant. The verses you and others expound and give different points regarding our justification but one in particular states a very important point regarding our justification and whether or not it is a man-centered salvation or a God-centered salvation.
May God richly bless
__________________
Independent Baptist -
So Independent the Independents don't like us! Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
kath-is'-tay-mee
From G2596 and G2476; to placedown (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Av, This is fun somtimes!
BBAS
__________________ Erasmus Asked: "Who will believe that God loves him?"
Luther : "I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! But the elect shall believe it; and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blaspheming, as you describe them. So there will be some who believe it."
first, I was commenting on your comment that Joe had contradicted himself. . When did your opinion start to count as though it were Joe's?
Joe hasn't contradicted himself, he has contradicted you!
hmmm...look closer at the link I provided. He agreed with me there.
And I am not entering a fight with you.
Please see Dad's verses above about justification.
__________________
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AV,
Perhaps it would be helpful to define justification.
There are various denominations and such that have differing views on this term. If people knew what definition you were referencing perhaps this discussion would be less of a mind-reading game.
__________________
Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
"It's ok to go off on a rabbit trail provided that you catch the rabbit."
hmmm...look closer at the link I provided. He agreed with me there.
And I am not entering a fight with you.
Please see Dad's verses above about justification.
Hi Free! I agreed with you that Faith is what justifies us. (well Christ is what justifies us but there has to be faith in Christ) If we have faith(true Faith) there will be works. There is NO way around that.
Once again, is there faith without works? How can there be? Think about it.
Joe
__________________ Jeremiah 29:11"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
"The sting of reproach(correction) is the truth of it." (Benjamin Franklin)
"Peace, if possible, but the TRUTH at any rate." (Martin Luther)
"I can do all things through Christ who stregthens Me!"
AV,
Perhaps it would be helpful to define justification.
There are various denominations and such that have differing views on this term. If people knew what definition you were referencing perhaps this discussion would be less of a mind-reading game.
You are right Knight - In my response I've prepared for when I'm ready to let people know my reason for all this I included a definition - but you are right - I think when I get to the doc I have prepared I will include up front what justification is according to my doc - sta tuned - good suggestion.
Later and may God bless.
__________________
Independent Baptist -
So Independent the Independents don't like us! Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
Actually Free, both posts do agree. The one you gave the link too and my post on this thread. I agree, we dont do works to become justified. We cant work to be justified, but we do works because of our Faith In Christ who justifies us. We can work all we want, but without Faith in Christ we wont be justified. So, when do we become Justified? When we have FAITH in Christ WITH WORKS.
I ask again how can one have true faith without works??
I talked to a man the other day that said he is Christian, but cusses every other word, used God's name in vain atleast twice while we were speaking, was smoking, and was drinking a beer...But was telling me he wsa justified and was on the way to Heaven. Come on now--was he showing true faith?
I told him, he wasnt saved acting like he was(by the way this dude likes beating his wife too) He used God's name in vain and said Why would God lose one of his own. This guy believes he is really in the family of God cause why? Someone preached to him that he is saved no matter what he does.
He thinks he is justified no matter what he does, cause he said that prayer. One cant say a Prayer and be justified without TRUE FAITH WITH WORKS. Our Good Works show our faith.
God Bless,
Joe
__________________ Jeremiah 29:11"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
"The sting of reproach(correction) is the truth of it." (Benjamin Franklin)
"Peace, if possible, but the TRUTH at any rate." (Martin Luther)
"I can do all things through Christ who stregthens Me!"
You are right Knight - In my response I've prepared for when I'm ready to let people know my reason for all this I included a definition - but you are right - I think when I get to the doc I have prepared I will include up front what justification is according to my doc - sta tuned - good suggestion.
Later and may God bless.
Ok.
This just seems a pointless exercise without the definition.
__________________
Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
"It's ok to go off on a rabbit trail provided that you catch the rabbit."
first, I was commenting on your comment that Joe had contradicted himself. . When did your opinion start to count as though it were Joe's?
Joe hasn't contradicted himself, he has contradicted you!
And let's look at the whole passage from James, shall we?
Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith savehim?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
That's the context my friend . . James repeats what he says over and over again with examples. It is pretty hard to miss unless your viewpoint doesn't allow you to see it. .
It doesn't just imply we are justified by works, it says it clear as a bell!!
I could provide other translations of verse 20, but I fear that James then may be too offensive to some . .
Peace in Him!
Great Post Therese! Thanks
Joe
__________________ Jeremiah 29:11"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
"The sting of reproach(correction) is the truth of it." (Benjamin Franklin)
"Peace, if possible, but the TRUTH at any rate." (Martin Luther)
"I can do all things through Christ who stregthens Me!"
Ok.
This just seems a pointless exercise without the definition.
Sorry - never intended it to be pointless - the verse I'm looking has not showed up yet - you asked for a definition so here goes.
In quotes is part of my post to be posted after the excersise is done.
"Problem – we were lost and dead in trespasses and sins with no way out. In order for us to spend eternity with God we have to be righteous. We are not and cannot be righteous on our own so…God had to make us righteous. God had to justify us because we couldn’t justify ourselves. How was He to do this and still be holy and just? Look at the following English definitions.
JUST'IFY, v.t. [L. justus, just,and facio, to make.] 1. To prove or show to be just, or conformable to law, right, justice, propriety or duty; to defend or maintain; to vindicate as right.
2. In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.God declared us justified and righteous as though we had never sinned or ever will. It has to be this way or there would be not way we could get to heaven and be in His presence without this great work."
Now, what verse in the NT shows us how we became justified before God. Seveal have given good verses. Hint - Dad listed it on his long list he gave. I was hoping people would take a concordance and think through it and come up with the verse that tells us how we are justified before God? I think now after all this some may be dissapointed. I hope not.
If no one gets the verse by the end of the day (EST) then I will post my explanation for why I dragged ya'll thought this excercise - thanks for your patience.
__________________
Independent Baptist -
So Independent the Independents don't like us! Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
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