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15th March 2004, 04:50 AM
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Reps: 105,291,347,172,269,648 (power: 105,291,347,172,285) | | Originally Posted by Magisterium If you remember, after the fall of the secular western Roman empire, the remaining eastern secular Roman emperor (who's also pretty much ran the eastern church as well)
Totally unlike Charlemange :rolleyes:
I have no desire to address the rest of your polemic. It is Lent after all
Peace (arg, what a hypocrite I am).
John. | 
15th March 2004, 05:22 AM
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15th March 2004, 06:08 AM
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__________________ "The omnipotence of the infinitely merciful God is checkmated by unyielding obstinacy." -- Rene Latourelle, S.J. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18) | 
15th March 2004, 10:29 AM
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Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Magisterium I'm sorry, your "historical" recount is flimsy at best. The fact is, the church has NEVER been "comprised" of independent groups who just happened to agree with each other and "form a whole". The fact is, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople were all Roman cities! All within the Roman empire and all existing under the Roman umbrella. Additionally, the Roman empire was seated in two main places. They were Constantinolpe in the east, and the City of Rome in the West. And as you already should know, the government of the empire flowed from the City of Rome in the West.
Ironically it was the western part of the secular Roman empire which collapsed first and the church was laid bare to the invasion of the Teutonic peoples. If you remember, after the fall of the secular western Roman empire, the remaining eastern secular Roman emperor (who's also pretty much ran the eastern church as well) tried to assert doctrinal supremacy but was not afforded this position because the doctrinal authority of the Church in the City of Rome had already been established over the course of the preceding centuries. Some examples to refresh your memory are as follows:
Pope Victor (189-199) intervenes and settles a dispute in the Eastern church about the date of Easter.
Pope Stephen (254-257) defends the doctrinal primacy of Rome against Cyprian of North Africa .
However, it is really the council of Chalcedon in 451 where Papal primacy is established. Additionally, the years following the Council at Chalcedon indeed show a clear communion with and recognition of the authority which resided in the west. The Patriarchs and bishops all remained not simply in communion with each other, but subject to the authority which flowed from the Church in Rome. This authority goes right back to scripture in Acts chapter 15. We see the patriarchs and bishops debating about various laws and their application to Christianity. It is when Peter stands and speaks, that the arguments are settled. In verse 13, we see that the congregation "fell silent" after Peter's discourse. Only then, does James speak up and expand upon Peter's established point. After this, the congregation is "mysteriously" no longer debating but now in agreement.
The fact is, your idea of 5 patriarchs running the church in perfect harmony is rediculous on so many levels. Perhaps the most obvious being that every ecumenical council is (and has been) comprised of a world-wide congregation of Bishops, not simply 5 (or 4) Patriarchs!
That said, I need to state that the Catholic Church grants the Eastern church a special place of compassion and an attutude of sorrow and remorse for the 4th crusade. As you should know, the first crusade was actually initiated at the request of the eastern church who was being pummelled by the invading Muslims, and the Western church responded by sending the crusading armies to help the eastern church. The Armies initially helped defend the City of Constantinople and even reclaimed portions of the Holy Land from the Muslim invaders. However, the pillage and sack of Constantinople during the 4th Crusade (some years later) was a tradgedy which the western church remains to this day unable to make up for and the eastern churches remain unwilling to forgive.
This tradgedy however, in no way negates or undermines the facts of history and the doctrinal authority which exist in the Roman Catholic Church to this day.
If you look back at the apostolic church you will realize that Rome was first among equals only because Rome was the capitol of the Roman Empire in a secular world. The first Church that Peter established was the Church of Antioch of which he was Bishop of long before he went went to Rome. Does that mean that the Bishop that was head of Antioch that Peter left in his place was not inspired by the Holy Spirit? Even though Rome was the capitol of the secular world, the Church was not a kingdom. All seven Ecumenical Councils were called to order by the eastern Church and were held in Constantinople.
The Church has already been forgiven, the only thing separating the Churches is the concept of Papal infallibility which even some Catholics have trouble understanding and believing. | 
15th March 2004, 10:52 AM
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