Evolution....?

AudioArtist · #11 14th October 2004, 02:55 PM

Considering most mainstream science agrees with carbon dating and evolution (and generally the scientific community views YEC in the same league as the flat Earth society) then I'm sorry but I'll have to go with evolution. I think that the creation story is metaphorical (like a lot of bits in the Bible.)

Of course, I could be wrong, but generally, if you look at it from a purely scientific perspective, it is clear that 1) there is evidence for a Creator 2) the Earth is CERTAINLY a lot older then 6000 years old and 3) evolution has a lot of evidence supporting it.

I'll probably get bashed down for saying this, but it's just what I believe. I wish I could close my mind and say "No, the Bible is literally correct on this issue" like many more fundimentalist Christians, but science for the majority of people points in a very different direction.

Andy Broadley · #12 14th October 2004, 04:41 PM

Come on guys and girls, lets get a grip here for a moment shall we. It is a common misconception that evolution is a threat to Christianity, and it quite simply is not so. Evolution neither challenges the existence of God nor flies in the face of Christian belief and understanding. On the contrary, it supports and confirms both of these things. Evolution has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt and cannot be ignored. This planet, our solar system and indeed the whole universe came into being from a huge explosion of matter in deep space. This much is clear. What science cannot answear is where the matter came from or how the explosion was caused. That is where God comes into the equation. Bear in mind that quantum physics was not invented in a lab by some modern day boffin. That too came from God.

Lets look at the stages of evolution as described by Darwin, who many Christians seem to see as almost the antichrist.

1. The universe is created from a huge explosion of matter in deep space. Over time this forms the stars and planets we know today, including the earth, which we will concentrate on from here on.

2. As the planet cools the oceans and land masses are formed, and as the atmosphere clears light from the sun, the moon and other stars are able to get through to the planets surface.

3. Vegatable life forms are the first to evolve and develop on the planet.

4. First animal life develops in the oceans.

5. Over millions of years some of these evolve into land based animal species, both reptillian and mammel.

6. In the final stage we see the emergence of the human race.

Now please go and read the beginning of Genisis again and look at it's account of how God created the earth. Compare it to the above. Does it start to look familier ?

Personally I have no doubt that the account recorded by Moses was given to him directly by God. But we must bear in mind that this account was written around 3500 years ago for a nation of mainly illiterate, nomadic goat herders. The concept of evolution would have been totally beyond their grasp. It was presented in a way they could understand.

To deny what is proven scientific fact is to bury our heads in the sand. What is more, we will never be taken seriously by our non Christian brothers and sisters while we continue to do this.

When God chose evolution as His means of creation, He proved himself the be the ultimate genius in the fields of quantum phyics, geology, biology, chemistry, DNA and gene development, botany, zoo-ology, and just about every other field of science you could care to mention, and many more that mankind has yet to even discover.

What God gave to Moses was an accurate account of how He directed evolution to create the world in which we now live (and seem to be doing our best to destroy). Darwins thoery does not contradict this, but supports and proves it. And of course shows how great the God of the universe really is.

So lets not be afraid of the brilliance and genius of Gods creation. Lets shout it from the rooftops that the God of creation is indeed the God of evolution.

kspchemist · #13 14th October 2004, 05:00 PM

Considering most mainstream science agrees with carbon dating and evolution

There is much debate on the accuracy of Carbon Dating. It can only provide a guestimate of age.

and generally the scientific community views YEC in the same league as the flat Earth society

We call those people arrogant. YEC is very viable, and there is a growing segment of the scientific community that is coming to the YEC side.

I think that the creation story is metaphorical (like a lot of bits in the Bible.)

If the story of Creation is not 100% accurate, then where does the history in the Bible begin? Adam and Eve? Cain and Able? Noah and the Ark? Or maybe Abraham? Why not throw out all history in the Bible. Your position is VERY dangerous. Anyway the in the Creation we have the very foundations of the Christian faith. Throw out the literalness of the story, then you can easily chuck the foundations of our faith.

1) there is evidence for a Creator

We agree there.

2) the Earth is CERTAINLY a lot older then 6000 years old

Sorry CS2x I can give you evidence that would put placing ANY age on the Earth into question. Just using the concept of a model.

3) evolution has a lot of evidence supporting it.

Again you are not totally correct. The Theory of Intelegent Design (i.e. Creationism) is gaining more ground with non-Christian Scientists.

I wish I could close my mind and say "No, the Bible is literally correct on this issue" like many more fundimentalist Christians, but science for the majority of people points in a very different direction

Someone has been feeding you some misinformation! As my favorite scientist, Sir Isaac Newton, once said that all science points to the existence of God. It was their faith in the literal truth of the Bible that gave us our wonderful foundations in science. Every great scientist WAS a staunch Christian. Read the bios on Coperincus, Kepler, Gallieo, Faraday, among others. They were all Christians. Their faith led them to their discoveries. Science will ALWAYS lead you toward to the literal truth of the Bible.

I have a question for you. Who is more trustworthy, God's Word or Scientists who are men?

Andy Broadley · #14 14th October 2004, 07:14 PM

You Said:- "There is much debate on the accuracy of Carbon Dating. It can only provide a guestimate of age".

There is still some debate about the scientific proof around the dangers of smoking also !!

You Said:- "We call those people arrogant. YEC is very viable, and there is a growing segment of the scientific community that is coming to the YEC side".

Quite a few so called intelligent scientists believe in alien abduction as well.

You Said:- "If the story of Creation is not 100% accurate, then where does the history in the Bible begin? Adam and Eve? Cain and Able? Noah and the Ark? Or maybe Abraham? Why not throw out all history in the Bible. Your position is VERY dangerous. Anyway the in the Creation we have the very foundations of the Christian faith. Throw out the literalness of the story, then you can easily chuck the foundations of our faith".

I don't see a discrepency between the Bibles version of creation and evolution. They are one and the same thing. But you have to allow for the people that Moses was speaking to.

You Said:- "Sorry CS2x I can give you evidence that would put placing ANY age on the Earth into question. Just using the concept of a model".

This evidence would be most appreciated. However, evidence disproving YEC would be overwhelming.

You Said:- "Someone has been feeding you some misinformation! As my favorite scientist, Sir Isaac Newton, once said that all science points to the existence of God. It was their faith in the literal truth of the Bible that gave us our wonderful foundations in science. Every great scientist WAS a staunch Christian. Read the bios on Coperincus, Kepler, Gallieo, Faraday, among others. They were all Christians. Their faith led them to their discoveries. Science will ALWAYS lead you toward to the literal truth of the Bible".

Without doubt, there has yet to be, and will never, any scientific evidence that denies the creation of our universe by God. Evolution simply proves the validity of God and His creation. That's the whole point.

You Said:- "I have a question for you. Who is more trustworthy, God's Word or Scientists who are men?"

And I have a question for you. Why not indeed trust God's word instead of using it as a barricade to hide behind ?

AudioArtist · #15 14th October 2004, 07:32 PM

I don't know where it exactly begins to get literal, and for me this affects the meaning in no way anyway. To be honest, the Old Testament is a bit too war-driven and frightening for me anyway; the only bits I can cope with are the psalms (beautiful) and the books of Solomon, especially the proverbs (very wise) along with some of the prophets' books. But a lot of it is confusing for me; and there is a lot of debate on what is literal and not (for example, many think that Adam and Eve is obviously symbolic while others say it actually happened just like that.) I say; who cares? The message remains the same. God created the world. We rebelled. We need Christ.

I know that EVERYTHING Christ did, as recorded, happened though...and everything that was recorded of the early Church happened too (basically I can easily take the whole New Testament literally.)

Andy Broadley · #16 14th October 2004, 08:55 PM

CS2x - a lot of people clearly do care whether the Bible should be taken literally or not, especially it would seem, our American brothers and sisters. I think that some of the Old Testament is clearly symbolic in order to be understandable to it's then intended audience (the Isrealite tribe)

But you're right, the message remains the same regardless. And the fact that it is still being debated and wondered at 3500 years later shows it's relevence to modern society. You said it was warlike and it is. It speaks of power struggles, poverty, famine, war, oppression, adultry, business malpractice, moral decline, political unrest, and much more. Just flick on the TV news. Not much changes does it ?

However, we digress a little. The sciptures of the Old Testament prove evolution and the origins of life to be true, and vice versa. Further proof that God's word does indeed speak through the ages.

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 · #17 15th October 2004, 04:26 AM

Humans and this earth could have only gotten here by two different ways: God or by accident. There is no third choice, right? It is now scientifically proven impossible for that many cells to have formed accidently. There is even a formula or equation or whatever you call it to prove this. So....for a smart people, it's very obvious that God exists. Some people have not heard of this. There are other people who are too lazy to research the evidence.....or too lazy to ask someone to prove God exists or too lazy to read a book.....or maybe like I said, they just haven't heard of it. There are some very good books out there that talk about this.

kspchemist · #18 15th October 2004, 11:33 AM

Come on guys and girls, lets get a grip here for a moment shall we. It is a common misconception that evolution is a threat to Christianity, and it quite simply is not so. Evolution neither challenges the existence of God nor flies in the face of Christian belief and understanding. On the contrary, it supports and confirms both of these things.

I don't know where you came from, but you are wrong. You are the one who is fooled, not me. In the whole account as I have said in an earlier post. The first chapters of Gensis contain how God created the world, and how sin came into the world. Where does the history of the Bible begin to be accurate? And if the History of the Bible is not accurate, then can we trust the Bible in moral issues. As I have again shown IT IS A MATTER OF THE BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY.

Evolution has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt and cannot be ignored.

Where does this guy get this stuff? Again I do keep up with the literature, and I don't find anywhere the "Law of Evolution" or something of the like. Again it is a THEORY and it cannot be proven.

Lets look at the stages of evolution as described by Darwin, who many Christians seem to see as almost the antichrist.

1. The universe is created from a huge explosion of matter in deep space. Over time this forms the stars and planets we know today, including the earth, which we will concentrate on from here on.

2. As the planet cools the oceans and land masses are formed, and as the atmosphere clears light from the sun, the moon and other stars are able to get through to the planets surface.

3. Vegatable life forms are the first to evolve and develop on the planet.

4. First animal life develops in the oceans.

5. Over millions of years some of these evolve into land based animal species, both reptillian and mammel.

6. In the final stage we see the emergence of the human race.

Now please go and read the beginning of Genisis again and look at it's account of how God created the earth. Compare it to the above. Does it start to look familier ?

Let me give you the short answer to your question. NO. When was the last time you read the account of Genesis? How does your view correlate 6 days in Scripture. How do you rectify the fact that whenever the Bible has a number and the word "day" together it ALWAYS refers to a literal 24-hour day. Anyway look at various scientific facts in the Bible, like the water cycle (I believe in the Book of Job), all the sanitation laws in the Book of Leviticus, in Psalms it talks about the "circle of the Earth", which refers to the atmosphere. If God wanted to leave us with the concept of evolution, then He would have told it to Moses differently.

Personally I have no doubt that the account recorded by Moses was given to him directly by God. But we must bear in mind that this account was written around 3500 years ago for a nation of mainly illiterate, nomadic goat herders. The concept of evolution would have been totally beyond their grasp. It was presented in a way they could understand.

Do you think that the children of Israel are stupid that they wouldn't understand Evolution? You have to be kidding. People are no more intelligent today than they were 3500 years ago. So quit feeding us your fish story. Anyway if God gave us this story of creation verbally, and God can only be truthful, then why would God lie and tell us He spoke it into exsistence, when He in fact did not?

To deny what is proven scientific fact is to bury our heads in the sand. What is more, we will never be taken seriously by our non Christian brothers and sisters while we continue to do this

You cannot be taken seriously, when you will not admit that evoulution cannot be proven.

What God gave to Moses was an accurate account of how He directed evolution to create the world in which we now live (and seem to be doing our best to destroy). Darwins thoery does not contradict this, but supports and proves it. And of course shows how great the God of the universe really is.

So lets not be afraid of the brilliance and genius of Gods creation. Lets shout it from the rooftops that the God of creation is indeed the God of evolution.

Again if the Bible said that God spoke it into exsistence, why did God lie?

Anyway YOU are the one who doesn't know what's at stake. If evolution is true man can DENY that God had anything to do with the creation of the world. Thus the Bible can be said to be false, and man don't have to follow what it says about morality, so they can live in any fashion they want to.

AudioArtist · #19 15th October 2004, 12:24 PM

Taking the story non literally does not take anything away, I don't know what you're getting so worked up about. And please re-think what you just said; would the ancient people really manage to understand the increadable complexity of how cells work and evolve, along with other relevant information on bacteria, reproduction, etc. etc.?? It's increadably complex stuff. God told us a parable with Truth behind it, just as Jesus told many parables. We have discovered so much since the days of the Bible in terms of science; that doesn't make the Bible untrue, however, and that's the beauty behind seeing the truth BEHIND these "parables" if you like-you can agree with the great disoveries in science (which the Church always faught against, just like Christians are fighting evolution today) but still believe in the Bible completely.
Anyway, if you read the Bible absolutely literally, then you'd think God was an all-consuming fire, who had wings, and sat down on a throne all day in a "kingdom" called Heaven, with his Son next to Him.

I believe in the full reality of God, and his Work through the Holy Spirit (including miracles and healings and so on)...I just believe that in some places in the Bible, God chose to inspire people to write parables or stories to explain things we could never, ever understand otherwise (I mean, if God revealed the workings of the universe absolutely literally, then the Bible would be 1000000000 pages long, I'm sure!)

kspchemist · #20 15th October 2004, 01:12 PM

Taking the story non literally does not take anything away, I don't know what you're getting so worked up about.

I beg to differ, please read this again. Man can and will DENY that God did not create the world. That is why I fight hard for the literal truth of the Bible. Anyway would God do ANYTHING that would possibly lead others to DENY his exsistence?

And please re-think what you just said; would the ancient people really manage to understand the increadable complexity of how cells work and evolve, along with other relevant information on bacteria, reproduction, etc. etc.??

Again I do think that they would. Men haven't become more intelligent in 3500 years.

God told us a parable with Truth behind it

No where in the text of Genesis 1-3 indicates that it is a parable. When Jesus spoke in parables you knew it was a parable.

We have discovered so much since the days of the Bible in terms of science; that doesn't make the Bible untrue, however, and that's the beauty behind seeing the truth BEHIND these "parables" if you like-you can agree with the great disoveries in science

I'll agree that science ALWAYS supports the Bible, but evolution does not support the Bible.

(which the Church always faught against, just like Christians are fighting evolution today

Again you are acting that evolution is a FACT, and any intelligent person knows the contrary is true. Again I have stated before it is a Theory not a Fact or Law or ant sort of thing.

Anyway, if you read the Bible absolutely literally, then you'd think God was an all-consuming fire, who had wings, and sat down on a throne all day in a "kingdom" called Heaven, with his Son next to Him.

And exactly what is wrong with that?

I just believe that in some places in the Bible, God chose to inspire people to write parables or stories to explain things we could never, ever understand otherwise

When the Bible talks in parables, it is clear from the text it is a parable. In the story of Creation, there is no indication from Scripture (nor from the Hebrew texts either) that this account is a parable.

I cannot take anyone serious, if they cannot admit the FACT, that evolution is a theory.