Kent Hovind

toff · #**481** 29th March 2004, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName

Are you trying to say that your Idea of Justice is better than God's

Yes. Based on the God presented in the OT, my idea of justice is MUCH better than God's.

I know it is NOT just to:

- punish a fallible being eternally for honest mistakes,
- indiscriminately slaughter men, women and children,
- punish people for offenses they did not commit,
- allow someone to take someone else's punishment,
- punish children for being rude by slaughtering them,
- punish homosexuals by killing them,
and so forth....

Arikay · #**482** 29th March 2004, 05:25 PM

1) So even the little babies mocked and laughed at him? Wow, smart babies.

2) I think she is saying that her idea of justice is better than god but not God.

The line "I am above the law, you cannot question me" has been used way too much to justify things many would consider evil, why is it all of a sudden valid now?

3) Actually they didn't choose to be selfish, they chose to follow the last person that talked to them, that would be the snake. Thats what happens when you make people who don't know right from wrong, they follow anyone. Not to mention that in gods "perfect" garden, they might have thought everyone had their best interest in mind because god said it was all perfect.

Originally Posted by AlHailThePowerOfJesusName

That Just show's how one person's sin effects other people.

those people did not want to be forgiven, they laughed at Noah and mocked him for obeying God, and even while he was building the ark.

to much Gilbert and Sullivan. Are you trying to say that your Idea of Justice is better than God's?????

1 it was not necessarily an apple. 2 They knew that they could obey or disobey. To do what God said, or what he told them not to do. They chose to be selfish, and suffered the consequences of their sin. They did know better.

Ishmael Borg · #**483** 29th March 2004, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arikay

1) So even the little babies mocked and laughed at him? Wow, smart babies.

I've never really thought much about the mass infant drowning. If I ever find Something to worship, it can't be a being who drowns hundreds of thousands of infants worldwide because a bunch of folks in the middle east didn't worship him in the manner he liked.

Jimmy The Hand · #**484** 30th March 2004, 12:42 AM

Amen

JohnR7 · #**485** 30th March 2004, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by IrishRockhound

It always seemed to me that the Christian god meted out huge punishments without warning to people who didn't know any better, like Adam and Eve getting tossed out of Eden eating one stupid apple

Adam and Eve were warned. Eve was deceived, but Adam knew what He was doing. So the problem with your: "seemed to me" is that your only going by what things seem like to you. Even if your preception were to be dependable, which is questionable, still, you have limited knowledge and understanding to go by, and your preception of things than is going to be in error, due to the limited about of data that your trying to work with.

JohnR7 · #**486** 30th March 2004, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ishmael Borg

If I ever find Something to worship, it can't be a being who drowns hundreds of thousands of infants

If there is no God, then what do you attribute the death of hundreds of thousands of infants to? Mother nature? What kind of a nature is that, or what kind of a mother would allow hundreds of thousands of infants to die?

When Darwin's daughter died, Darwin could not accept any explaination for why it happened. He could not accept a God who would "allow" his daughter to die, and he could not accept a natural world where it was possible for things like this to happen.

Is life and death determined by the twist and turn of events? Was it by mere chance that hundreds of thousands of infants died, with no reason for it? Were they just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Glacial · #**487** 30th March 2004, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

If there is no God, then what do you attribute the death of hundreds of thousands of infants to? Mother nature? What kind of a nature is that, or what kind of a mother would allow hundreds of thousands of infants to die?

I don't know about Ishmael, but I attribute them to nature. What kind of nature is that? Why, it's the nature that exists. Nature isn't a concious being capable of emotions and rational thought. I really don't understand where you're going with this.

Is life and death determined by the twist and turn of events? Was it by mere chance that hundreds of thousands of infants died, with no reason for it? Were they just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Why not? It wasn't mere chance, but a result of natural causes. Your suggestion that there was/is no reason for infants dying is a bit strange as well. If an infant happens to die from a car accident, then the car or the driver are the cause. Yes, there is no divine cause, but why should there be? And yes, unfortunately they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

IrishRockhound · #**488** 31st March 2004, 09:34 AM

I can't believe that I got back to this thread so late...

That Just show's how one person's sin effects other people.

Oh that's just great. So if my brother goes out tomorrow and kills someone, I'll be punished too?

those people did not want to be forgiven, they laughed at Noah and mocked him for obeying God, and even while he was building the ark.

So why does it say in the bible that anyone can be forgiven their sins? Is there a proviso that all sins EXCEPT non-belief will be forgiven? How do you know that all those people did what the bible says? How do you know that they deserved to die?!?

This presents one picture only of the Christian god - that he is petty enough to wipe out anyone who doesn't believe in him, as well as a significant portion of life on Earth. Talk about freaking overkill.

Are you trying to say that your Idea of Justice is better than God's?????

Than the Christian god portrayed in the bible? Yes, I am.

1 it was not necessarily an apple. 2 They knew that they could obey or disobey. To do what God said, or what he told them not to do. They chose to be selfish, and suffered the consequences of their sin. They did know better.

It was some kind of fruit. Let's say it was an apple for convenience.

They didn't know it was wrong. Arikay and others have already covered this. Anyway, they were supposedly given free will, so I'd say that god should have been expecting something to happen. As well as that, he's supposed to be all-knowing - so he would have known from they start what they were going to do.

It ends up going like this:

God creates Adam and Eve. He makes them perfect, because obviously he couldn't make anything imperfect. He knows that they will eat from the Tree and gain the knowledge of good and evil because the snake will tell them to. He tells them not to eat from the Tree, then goes away, leaving it easily within their grasp and leaving them to their own devices.
The snake (who was also perfect, seeing as he was created by god) talks to Eve, and tells her that it's ok to eat from the Tree. Eve doesn't know that it's wrong, and she's been given permission to eat by the snake. She eats, and gets Adam to have some too.
God returns, and manages to act surprised despite the fact that he already knew that they would do it and who would tell them to do it. Instead of punishing the snake, he kicks Adam and Eve out of Paradise and curses them in such a way that their 'sin' was passed down to all their children and children's children and so on, even though they had nothing to do with the original transgression.

An analogy: A mother leaves a very special cookie on a table in full view of her young child. She tells him not to eat the cookie, despite the fact that she knows his brother will tell him it's ok to eat it and he will eat it, then leaves. His older brother comes by, and tells him that it's ok to eat the cookie. So the child does. The mother returns and acts surprised that she was disobeyed, and instead of punishing the brother, she disowns her young child and shoves him outside to fend for himself.

It's exactly the same in either case - if you don't know that what you're doing is wrong, you can't commit a sin. You have to choose to be selfish - and in order to choose you have to know what being selfish is, which Adam and Eve didn't know because it was before they ate from the Tree.

Nathan Poe · #**489** 31st March 2004, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

Adam and Eve were warned. Eve was deceived, but Adam knew what He was doing.

So why punish Eve?

So the problem with your: "seemed to me" is that your only going by what things seem like to you. Even if your preception were to be dependable, which is questionable, still, you have limited knowledge and understanding to go by, and your preception of things than is going to be in error, due to the limited about of data that your trying to work with.

Johnny, I see a bit of pronoun truoble here. You keep saying "you" when I think you mean "we."

...unless you've achieved infallibility and forgot to tell us.

EnemyPartyII · #**490** 27th February 2008, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

If there is no God, then what do you attribute the death of hundreds of thousands of infants to? Mother nature? What kind of a nature is that, or what kind of a mother would allow hundreds of thousands of infants to die?

When Darwin's daughter died, Darwin could not accept any explaination for why it happened. He could not accept a God who would "allow" his daughter to die, and he could not accept a natural world where it was possible for things like this to happen.

Is life and death determined by the twist and turn of events? Was it by mere chance that hundreds of thousands of infants died, with no reason for it? Were they just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

LMFCO