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Well - I clearly wasn't getting my point across for some people, so I had to come up with examples to make people understand what I was asking. People kept talking about discipline or lawful punishment or the debtor forgiving the vindictive person.

I think I understand what you mean! If person A took revenge on person B, then person A not only has to ask for forgiveness from person B, but after getting forgiveness, must also forgive person B. That makes sense. Thanks.

I agree with what you said. This question is about vindictiveness. Please let us not waste time talking about discipline or lawful punishment etc. We are talking about vindictiveness ONLY. If someone acted vindictively, and then says "I forgive you" - I contend that the person has not...

legal punishment or just punishment is not in scope of this discussion. I am talking about people taking vengeance out of unforgiveness like the unmerciful servant. If someone has taken vengeance, then my question is "how can they forgive" - forgiveness if meaningless if vengeance is taken...

The problem is that many people have acted out of vengeance since the beginning of time. Vengeance isn't a new idea, and yet the Bible doesn't seem to imply that Vengeance is unforgivable except for Matt 18: 21-35. But Mat 18: 21-35 really got me thinking because once you've acted out in...

I think a lot of the problem is it has been decades since people experienced a World War, and it has made people in the West very very soft. Some people cannot be reasoned with, and they must be fought and defeated. We would all be speaking German if the Allies did not defeat them in battle...

Someone took revenge on me in a harmful and unjust way, and then they said "they forgive me" for doing the thing that made them go into an uncontrollable rage. This is what prompted this theological question. I don't know the answer, that's why I am wondering what others think. I agree with...

No. Hypocrisy only works if it is between two people expected to live to the same standards. A policeman can walk around with a gun, but he can arrest someone not licensed to do the same. Is that hypocrisy? Of course not, because different standards exist for the cop and for the unlicensed...

The 10 Commandments are for us, not for God. Think of it as rules that parents make for their kids: thou shalt not drink alcohol etc. But doesn't mean those rules necessarily apply to the adults. But the poster above me is also correct, it is "thou shalt not murder". People have killed in...

Sort of. The first example sounds okay, but let's take the second example up a notch. What if your neighbor ruined your car, and you took revenge by destroying their property. Then you told him "I forgive you". Your forgiveness is worthless, therefore you haven't forgiven, therefore God...

Anything we do that Jesus didn't do, in the name of religion, is vain. If we personally want to fiddle with beads while we pray, there's nothing wrong with that. But the fact that it is a suggested/recommended religious practice - that is certainly 100% vain. No doubt about it. That's also...

I heard it said like this: God examines an infinity combinations of his interventions on Earth's history, and the one that allows the most people to be saved (given man's free will) is the reality that we live right now. That is how man's will is reconciled with God's goodness. He is all...

My point is this: if you punish someone, what is your forgiveness worth? Say the UMS sent the debtor to prison and said "I forgive them". What is that "forgiveness" worth? It is worthless!!! The value of forgiveness is to avoid punishment, but if you've already punished someone, how can you...

In the parable of the unmerciful servant, the very act of the UMS of vindictively punishing someone who had a debt against him meant that even after the UMS asked the master for forgiveness, the master didn't forgive any more. The lesson I get from this is that vindictive punishment is the very...

I am prepared to accept the possibility of a strict interpretation of lies, even though I don't see any precedence outside of Rev 21:8 that says white lies send you to hell. Up until now, my interpretation of the Matt 5-7 is basically it's a reinforcement of "love your neighbor" - it's not...

We waste time arguing about my motives - this is about the truth of the Bible and the arguments people have presented, not about me. Now I don't know whether you have experience in formal debate, but in debates you do not challenge people personally, you just stick to the arguments presented...

why judge me at all? Why not just discuss just the topic without feeling that I am just trying to trap you or argue with you? I am really wanting to know what you feel the Bible is saying. Remember - I come from an objective point of view. What you're writing is not necessarily the truth, it...

I am trying to explore the truth of God's Word, please don't waste time trying to judge me or my motives. This is a forum: for discussing a topic - not each other. I have not made judgments on your character, and I would appreciate if you would refrain from making judgments on mine. I am...

Hi Jason, can we address the topic of the burden of sin? You said that the OT has 613 laws, which you say cannot be followed, but you also say that the NT has 1050 laws which I contend are even more difficult to follow because menial sins like white lies and wanting to upgrade to the new...

Again Jason, thanks for being patience with your responses and taking the time to write detailed responses. I see that our exchanges are becoming more fine-tuned as we understand each other better. in OSAS thinking, fear of the Lord is needed in order to realize that you need Jesus'...