Search results

  1. Z

    New here, concerned with decline in attendance

    Our ELCA church is an unusual situation. We live in a beach resort/vacation area. We have no young families with children -- they all went to the big nondenominational church a few years ago, with a lot of youth programs that none of the other denominational churches can offer because, well...
  2. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    I am saying that they are guilty of misusing the word "sanctuary". Some states have laws on the books that are popularly called "Good Samaritan laws" which require citizens to render aid to others in some circumstances, or shields them from civil liability for doing so. So if someone is...
  3. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    If this is what they mean, it would have been nice if this were made clear in the memorial they voted on. At least then you wouldn't have congregants and pastors freaking out about it. But I support a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" here, more or less -- but I do not want the church to be told...
  4. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    You are the one suggesting criminal activity. The burden of proof is on **you**. The mere fact of using the word "sanctuary" is not much proof at all, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt.
  5. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    Good point. "Sanctuary" is a loaded word and is misused in a way that is not consistent with its historical meaning. I think if they chose a less loaded term there would be less outrage and less concerned congregants telling pastors they are thinking about leaving. "Sanctuary cities" and...
  6. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    If the church is actively hiding them from the authorities specifically to help them avoid detection and *actively* conceals them to prevent ICE from finding them, I agree with you. Simply saying "we won't turn you in" (if not required to do so) doesn't appear to cross that line.
  7. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    They are declaring they will not turn in those who have already broken the law. Subtle difference, but IMO an important one. And again, that is not illegal. You keep dancing around that point. Helping someone break the law makes you an accessory to the act, which *is* breaking the law. That...
  8. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    I think we're at a circular impasse at this point. Your point (as I'm parsing it) seems to be that announcing you will help lawbreakers to the extent the law allows you is tantamount to breaking the law itself, and thus a sin (apologies if I've mischaracterized) -- in other words, even if your...
  9. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    I agree that much of this is straight from Scripture. But telling that to a crowd in a hyperpolarized, hyperpartisan climate such as ours is not likely to succeed. Still, the point should be made. The fact is that my impression of the ELCA, as a churchwide body, is obsessively focused on only...
  10. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    IMO, it's not saying that. Again, there is no law requiring churches to *proactively* turn in anyone suspected of being here illegally. If ICE or other immigration officials order a church to turn someone over to their custody, and the church refuses, *then* the church is breaking the law and...
  11. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    How do you reconcile that with Leviticus 19:33? Would not betraying the "foreigner residing in our land" also be a sin against God? I don't have an answer, by the way, but I think we won't find it (in either direction) by picking and choosing specific snippets of Scripture. But again, there...
  12. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    True. The Bible says what the Christian (and Jewish) response should be, not what the state should or should not do. But as best as I can tell, this isn't breaking any laws. A church is not a government entity and has no legal duty to turn over or report anyone who is undocumented/illegal...
  13. Z

    ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

    I'm married to an ELCA pastor in a fairly small town area. While I understand the Biblical roots of the "radical hospitality" to the alien and reserve judgment on specifics until there is actually policy (no earlier than 2022, apparently), it is increasingly obvious that ELCA churchwide is...
  14. Z

    What has become of Christianity

    To me it feels like the Christian Church is being polarized, much like in politics and society. Centrist thought seems to be relegated to irrelevance as the two "prominent" wings of faith are becoming obvious: the traditionalist, very conservative part of the church (all Law, no Gospel) and...
  15. Z

    Which day to worship God.

    No. But the calendar is a human construct, not God's. The Bible says nothing about the 7th Day being Saturday. And do we know that God said "let there be light" on a Sunday? How could we, since the concept of Sunday in the human calendar didn't exist yet? Yes, the Bible is clear that the...
  16. Z

    Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

    Not even close. I just don't think about being *afraid* of God on a daily basis. I didn't intend to make sound as if I was always obedient, because let's be honest... who among us is, even when we try? I know I'm far from perfect but I try to do the right thing. I *try* to be obedient, but...
  17. Z

    Which day to worship God.

    Like I said.... "The Bible did not reference a calendar and say which day of the week to make holy." Jewish traditions are fine and good, and those who follow those traditions should honor it, but it ain't in the Bible. It makes sense that they observe the Sabbath on Saturday, because in the...
  18. Z

    Which political party is more consistent with scriptural teaching?

    Well, I don't much care for the "Jesus was a socialist" argument that many liberals trot out, but there is at least a partial nugget of truth to it -- but not necessarily in the political context. Jesus very clearly called on those of greater means to share their good fortune with those of...
  19. Z

    Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

    A bit? Sure. But it does not define my relationship with God. Love, reverence, obedience.... yes, totally, all the time. In some moments there is trepidation when I feel I may be falling short of what God expects of me. But my relationship with God is not primarily anchored by what we...
  20. Z

    Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

    Well, to the extent that reverence implies obedience, I think it does. And I think that would have been more obvious if you chose to quote the rest of my post.