Do we "deserve" hell.....

robert skynner said:

I would disagree Matt! After death there is no chance to change our eternal state, you can repent and change your future during life, but not after death.

Click to expand...

But, from the Orthodox sermon I attached, what you say does not appear to be the Orthodox teaching - unless the Priest delivering the sermon, delivered a message that was not Orthodox. I appreciate that what you say is the teaching of many, possibly most, Christian denominations.

I have heard Orthodox priests say that there is no repentance after death ... and I have heard them say that all hope is not lost. I've heard other nuanced answers too.

I'm not sure if there is some allowance for variation or, especially in the cases I heard, if it is not a VERY nuanced answer based on "what EXACTLY is repentance" or something else.

I'm interested, and I've heard a great deal. Sometimes you have to listen to the words behind the words.

I wouldn't presume to answer for the Church on this though, precisely because I've heard some fine nuances being discussed.

ArmyMatt said:

well, according to St Mark of Ephesus, you are wrong. personally, I agree with his take on Orthodoxy that there is always hope, and that one is never truly dead until after the Final Judgment, AND the experiences of the saints (such as St Xenia of St Petersburg) show otherwise.

Click to expand...

Matt, when you get a chance, could you please let me know how St. Xenia's experience fits into this? I have an idea, but I'm curious if there is more to it than what I'm thinking of. I don't expect you to give me every detail, but I'm curious of how much detail there is, and I'd like to look into it. Thank you so much!

~Anastasia~ said:

Matt, when you get a chance, could you please let me know how St. Xenia's experience fits into this? I have an idea, but I'm curious if there is more to it than what I'm thinking of. I don't expect you to give me every detail, but I'm curious of how much detail there is, and I'd like to look into it. Thank you so much!

Click to expand...

her husband died in his sins and a non-believer, and she prayed for God to have mercy on him. she initially saw him in torment, and then some time later she saw him in paradise. there is a similar account of Elder Joseph the hesychast and his aunt.

only after Judgment Day is the final choice made, where we are eternally in rebellion or communion with the Lord.

ArmyMatt said:

her husband died in his sins and a non-believer, and she prayed for God to have mercy on him. she initially saw him in torment, and then some time later she saw him in paradise. there is a similar account of Elder Joseph the hesychast and his aunt.

only after Judgment Day is the final choice made, where we are eternally in rebellion or communion with the Lord.

Click to expand...

Ah, thank you. That is indeed a little more detail than I was aware of. And I have a special interest in St. Xenia.

I am also reminded of another Saint whose story is quite relevant, and I'm ashamed to say his name escapes me at the moment. I can't believe I've forgotten. Hopefully I will remember soon.

He was a soldier, I believe, and martyred? A Christian woman got permission to take her husband's remains, but I think she had this Saint buried in her family tomb instead? He apparently prayed for her relatives buried there, who had died without knowing Christ.

I remember the story, but not the name.

Light of the East said:

I have started to listen to (and greatly enjoy) Ancient Faith Radio. Seems to me that the priests who are hell-bent on defending eternal hell are Evangelical converts for the most part. Just sayin'....

Click to expand...

maybe on there, but the eternality of hell is the patristic understanding. what we do not say is how many will end up there. Fr Thomas Hopko is no convert, and he defends the traditional understanding of an eternal hell.

Light of the East said:

I'm a tad confused here. What is the Orthodox take on Judgment Day? What is the chronological order of the Resurrection, the Judgment, etc? as per Orthodox understanding?

Click to expand...

Judgment Day is when the bodies will be raised. if you reject the life God offers, that resurrection is unto condemnation. if you accept His life, that resurrection is unto bliss. the problem is that time will not be as it is now, so chronology is not the way we experience it currently.

maybe all will accept God in the end and hell will be empty (we should certainly hope so), but we cannot say we know that all will do that, since only God can Judge.

ArmyMatt said:

there is always hope. whether or not the rich man accepts the hope God offers is on him. if he ends up lost in the end, it is because he prefers himself to God and neighbor, and God's providence will always honor that choice.

Click to expand...

Well I'd have to disagree with you ArmyMatt, as I see it, after death ones eternal state is set with no possibility of changing that state. But I have read and considered your alternate position.
robert

ArmyMatt said:

well, according to St Mark of Ephesus, you are wrong. personally, I agree with his take on Orthodoxy that there is always hope, and that one is never truly dead until after the Final Judgment, AND the experiences of the saints (such as St Xenia of St Petersburg) show otherwise.

Click to expand...

OK ArmyMatt, possibly I am at variance with St Mark of Ephesus. However, could I ask for any scriptural support which you have to support St Mark of Ephesus' position that after death, our eternal state can still be changed. I am open to correction, but you do have to show me scriptural support. Thanks. Robert.

robert skynner said:

OK ArmyMatt, possibly I am at variance with St Mark of Ephesus. However, could I ask for any scriptural support which you have to support St Mark of Ephesus' position that after death, our eternal state can still be changed. I am open to correction, but you do have to show me scriptural support. Thanks. Robert.

Click to expand...

we should be clear that one's ETERNAL state cannot be changed, once the Lord has returned and judged the world. However, until then, the departed are in the intermediate state, awaiting their final judgment. Until Christ's return we believe our prayers can help the departed.

jckstraw72 said:

we should be clear that one's ETERNAL state cannot be changed, once the Lord has returned and judged the world. However, until then, the departed are in the intermediate state, awaiting their final judgment. Until Christ's return we believe our prayers can help the departed.

Click to expand...

OK, I now better understand your position, forgive me for my misunderstanding, I certainly did not want to misrepresent you of the orthodox position. I guess that my own position would be that in the intermediate state, our prayer cannot change a persons eternal destiny. Robert

robert skynner said:

OK, I now better understand your position, forgive me for my misunderstanding, I certainly did not want to misrepresent you of the orthodox position. I guess that my own position would be that in the intermediate state, our prayer cannot change a persons eternal destiny. Robert

Click to expand...

From that point of view (which I held for decades) I admitted to myself that I had a bit of an issue with making sense of a God who would send people into torment, only to later bring them up for judgement, at which time He would send them back into torment. What exactly is the final judgement, and why, if everyone has already been finally judged?

You needn't answer. But it was a bit of a problem to reconcile.

I admit that I still am very cautious with what the Orthodox Church teaches. It is easy to make wrong assumptions because the very language can have slightly different meanings.

And I should say I don't teach on behalf of the Church. At most, I put forth what I've been told, and might draw out certain points or condense.

With that said, it seems to be a fairly consistent teaching to say - we believe our prayers can benefit those in the intermediate state. Exactly how they benefit (what God does in response) we do not have a specific expectation. We simply love, so we pray, and all else is in God's hands.

Any necessary correction from my Orthodox brothers and sisters appreciated.

robert skynner said:

Well I'd have to disagree with you ArmyMatt, as I see it, after death ones eternal state is set with no possibility of changing that state. But I have read and considered your alternate position.
robert

Click to expand...

which is fine, you are not Orthodox so it makes sense that you would disagree.

robert skynner said:

OK ArmyMatt, possibly I am at variance with St Mark of Ephesus. However, could I ask for any scriptural support which you have to support St Mark of Ephesus' position that after death, our eternal state can still be changed. I am open to correction, but you do have to show me scriptural support. Thanks. Robert.

Click to expand...

when St Paul prays for St Onesiphorus in 2 Timothy, Onesiphorus has already died. it makes no sense to ask God for mercy on someone after they die, unless that mercy is effectual on the person.

and our eternal state is only AFTER Judgment Day. yes, after that time there is no change, but that is not what we are talking about.

Light of the East said:

What would be the Orthodox position on such a statement? I was perusing a Catholic forum board and the statement was made that all mankind "deserves" hell. That sounds to me like one is approaching our being and salvation again from a legal position. In other words, rather than saying that hell is a consequence of our choices, it makes it sound like:

"You chose sin therefore you deserve to be punished."

Punishment as law rather than consequence.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

God does not believe we deserve hell, for he made the fire for the devil and his angels/unclean spirits not humans. God made us with free will. It is our choice whether we go to hell or do not go to hell. If we didn't have free will, we would be puppets. From my experience and what I see in people are unclean spirits can jump in and out of people. They look for people to use. I see an epidemic of people hosting unclean spirits in their bodies these days, for they are no longer with God, so if the spiritual fire is made for the devil and his angels/unlcean spirits, and people are possessed which they allowed these spirits entry through their free will, then they will end up in the spiritual fire, for it was made for the unclean spirits.

My view may change but regardless.. God does not put anyone in the fire. WE put ourselves in the fire by not being connected to the source of life through our own free will.

the spiritual fire ("hell") is God's pure divine love.. if the person is not prepared for this filling of God's love then it is putting new wine in old wineskins.. it will burst. The divine love will be torment to the person not prepared for such a transformation.

OrthodoxPhoebe said:

God does not put anyone in the fire. WE put ourselves in the fire by not being connected to the source of life through our own free will.

the spiritual fire ("hell") is God's pure divine love.. if the person is not prepared for this filling of God's love then it is putting new wine in old wineskins.. it will burst. The divine love will be torment to the person not prepared for such a transformation.

Click to expand...

this

From what I understand, those people who reject God, or hate God, and consider their "all" as themselves, and their "all" as this world, become monsters. Those people will be punished for eternity.

I read this on two GOC sites.

Hard pill to swallow. It makes me upset and my faith suffers...

YCGP said:

From what I understand, those people who reject God, or hate God, and consider their "all" as themselves, and their "all" as this world, become monsters. Those people will be punished for eternity.

I read this on two GOC sites.

Hard pill to swallow. It makes me upset and my faith suffers...

Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd use the word "monster" ... they lose their personhood might be a better way to say it? Become warped, twisted?

Their suffering is a result of what they become, not a punishment purposely inflicted by God.

It's sad, certainly. But if God respects our free will, how can it damage a person's faith that those who chose to become so, do? (If any in fact choose, we hope and pray not!)

Let's talk about it some more, to see if we can help?